What if the most important marketing metric isn't clicks, conversions, or impressions—but the ability to keep people interested?
In this episode of The Personal Side of Business, Jet sits down with marketing strategist, fractional CMO, and author Jonathan Lo to explore how empathy, human connection, and genuine value creation are becoming the biggest differentiators in today's AI-driven world. Jonathan shares his unique journey from electrical engineering and humanitarian work to leading marketing initiatives for multi-billion-dollar organizations.
They discuss why businesses often focus too heavily on the 3% of customers ready to buy today while ignoring the other 97%, how AI is changing the future of marketing and e-commerce, and why authentic human connection may become even more valuable as technology advances.
Jonathan also dives into the core ideas from his new book, Keeping People Interested, offering practical insights for founders, entrepreneurs, marketers, and growing businesses looking to build stronger customer relationships and sustainable growth.
In this episode, you'll learn:
- Why empathy is a competitive advantage in marketing
- The "97% Rule" and how it impacts business growth
- How AI will reshape marketing and consumer behavior
- Why branding and human connection matter more than ever
- Common marketing mistakes growing companies make
- How founders can create long-term customer loyalty
- The balance between data, psychology, and creativity in business
Whether you're a startup founder, business owner, marketer, or simply interested in the future of business, this conversation offers valuable insights into keeping customers engaged in an increasingly automated world.
Check out more about Jonathan and his book and company...
Check out my website and more episodes and info at personalsideofbusiness.com
#ThePersonalSideOfBusiness #JonathanLo #MarketingStrategy #CustomerExperience #BusinessGrowth #Entrepreneurship #Branding #AI #Marketing #Leadership #SmallBusiness #Podcast
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Welcome to The Personal Side of Business, where you hear real stories from real entrepreneurs.
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Hi, and welcome to The Personal Side of Business, where every business has a story.
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I'm your host, Jet Bandewang. Today, my guest is going to talk about how empathy
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can play a key role in marketing and business growth. Welcome to the podcast, Jonathan Lowe.
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Thank you. It's great to be here, Jet.
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Thanks for coming on. So let's start with your story. How did we get here? Because you have a
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pretty unique story of starting out in a place where it had nothing to do with marketing,
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and now you're here.
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Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in the Chicago suburbs, and I always loved technology as a kid.
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You know, I remember spilling orange juice on my keyboard once and taking it all apart,
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cleaning it up. And, you know, I loved seeing the circuit boards and everything, and
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really resonated with science and math growing up. And so I studied electrical engineering
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in my undergrad. Interestingly, though, I discovered a little bit through the process
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of engineering that I love solving problems and the application of technology more than I loved
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doing the engineering itself. But in any case, I continued on my journey through college, and
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near the end of my time there, I learned about global poverty issues. And, you know,
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just how two billion people in the world live down less than $2 a day. You know,
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20-some million people were modern-day slaves. Like, so many of these statistics just really
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wrecked me, and I felt very compelled to do something about it. So I ended up, after
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graduating, taking a one-year fellowship program with a global nonprofit based out of Seattle.
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And the intent there was to really help raise awareness on college campuses,
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something I was working on in my senior year, awareness and funds, and just helping
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wake up the first world to really what's going on more broadly. And so I ended up taking a
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fellowship program with this nonprofit, loved it, felt so compelled to stay that after my year
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with them, I asked, you know, how else can I help? And so we found me a role in data analytics
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because I could deal with numbers. And eventually I ended up giving, taking on a role that I said,
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back in the day, you know, the job that you gave a millennial who had no discernible skills
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was what? Organic social media marketing. So I took over their Facebook page and Twitter and
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all of that, and helped grow the page over a million fans, which to this day is a lot,
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but back then was very significant. And I learned marketing so quick when every single post out
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there, right? If you don't get 300 to a thousand engagements within minutes, you know, something's
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wrong. So that was the beginning of my journey into marketing. And I'm happy to share much more
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about my path as I dove deeper into that. Yeah, that's, that's interesting. And question for you,
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did you get interested in the marketing side? Was it, I mean, outside of your goal to really help
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people, but I felt like you're that engineering brain was really what drove you, right? Learning
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those numbers and making it come to use for something else. Was that a driving force in it?
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Yeah. So, you know, what's funny is, and thank you for asking, it took me probably over a decade to
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decide I actually liked marketing, but it served me really well. And I realized why I kept sticking
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with it, right? Because out of the organic social media piece, I ended up working in product
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management, helped launch their first mobile optimized website, which is increased mobile
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acquisitions by over 50%. I ended up managing a multi-million dollar digital advertising budget.
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I realized that I love the balance of the art and the science of marketing, right? There's,
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there's numbers, there's technology, there's all these pieces, automations. And at the same time,
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there's this creative element of copywriting and imagery and design. And so it turns out I,
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even in engineering, that was the part I liked. It's this interesting marriage of being creative
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for the sake of solving broader problems. And it turns out that's exactly what marketing is.
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Do you think coming from, you know, we're going to get into it more of that human aspect and
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empathetic side of marketing that you are building your business upon? Do you think
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coming from that side really can never get taken out of the true marketing sense? Like if you,
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if you were, all this AI automation that we have, all this computerized digital stuff that we
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carry over into now almost everything we do, do you think the human side will always need to be
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there in order for marketing to exist and grow the way you're, you're looking at it now?
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Yeah, you know, what's fascinating is I actually think that in the age of AI, marketing is going
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to be even more necessary, marketing from humans. And the reason I say that is because technology
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continues to democratize things such as product development. You know, the ability to vibe code
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a functional application, whether or not you're building pieces on cloud or lovable these days,
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whatever it looks like, something you can actually go to market with and provide value
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and start solving problems, that barrier is reducing over and over again. So how do you
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differentiate really is actually going to be in your marketing and branding. And in fact,
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related to even my, something I was very excited for this week was the launch of my debut book,
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which is called Keeping People Interested. Your ability to keep people interested is always going
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to need a human element and a human creativity, that person to tie it all together, accelerated
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by AI, yes, but not replaced by. Yeah, that's interesting. It's a great segue that I was
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wanting to get to your book. When you're sharing this information, what do you think is the key
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element in making us different or making a company different when they're marketing and using that,
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that human element? What do you think is that, that key element that either companies are missing
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out on or they need to improve on in order to bring that to light even more? Yeah, absolutely.
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And thank you for asking. And I'll even just kind of show your folks here. This book is called
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Keeping People Interested, and the premise is that it's the only KPI that really matters, right? And
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so as an engineer, obviously numbers are incredibly important, but the ability to keep someone
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interested is the crux of what will help companies be successful or not. And so you naturally should
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be asking me, well, how do you keep people interested? The premise of the book and my
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philosophy is that to keep people interested, you need to be interested in them. And what that
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means is having empathy for them along every stage of the shopping journey that they're in
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and constantly providing value, not simply asking over and over again for the sale. You know, I talk
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about what I call the 97% rule in my book, where so many companies, especially e-commerce companies,
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are obsessed with their conversion rate. The 2% to 3% or 4% will go with 3% of people who come to
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the website and buy today. And when you're at a large scale, I ended up working for a $2 billion
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e-commerce company. Like every BIP basis point, one hundredth of a percent difference in conversion
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rate really did net out to hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue for the year. It makes sense
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why they were focused there. But the premise of the book and what I've really come to learn
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and believe through my years experience with multi-billion dollar organizations, with startups,
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with grad school, is that you've got to care about the other 97%. That's why it's called the 97% rule.
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Help people by providing value if they need education or inspiration or a sense of belonging
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with your brand. I go into all these different strategies and tactics because that's really how
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companies will end up achieving long-term sustainable, profitable growth. It's companies
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that add value that grow in the long run, companies that chase profitability today and obsess over
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market share, you know, that don't think about the human that's actually purchasing your service or
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product. Those are the folks that will end up not succeeding. Yeah, that's a great point. Do you
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think that there are enough of these large corporations, especially the ones that are based
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in the e-commerce space, that are putting weight into this human side of marketing to go really
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connect with those people? Or do you think there's such a huge machine that they're just looking at
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numbers and they've gotten away from that? You know, it's really tricky. The trend that I've seen
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is with more established publicly traded companies, they have shareholders and they
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have quarterly targets to hit. And it is very difficult to truly be customer-centric in the
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long run when you have all these pressures of investors or folks who demand profitability
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and dividends and growth. Now, the trend that I've seen on the flip side is that companies,
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large ones who are still founder-led, you know, are able to take this longer-term view because
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investors have bought into the vision of what they're trying to accomplish in the long run.
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And those are the companies that are able to say, I don't even care about making money today.
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I care about adding value and I know I'll make money in the future. Now, there's a tension,
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of course, because what essentially I was speaking toward will naturally go down toward that, you
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know, venture capital seeking the unicorn path. And that's not for everyone. But there are many
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companies that are just saying, you know, we'll figure out the money thing. We just got to add
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value. And those are the companies that on the average will be successful.
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And I'm assuming when you, the companies that you've worked with, if you go in there and you
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start to feel and get a sense that they're open-minded to what you're trying to strategize
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with them, I'm sure that's like, that's just like, oh, that's a sigh of relief. Right. But then you
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go into a company that's like, no, no, no, this doesn't really work for us. We're just looking at
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numbers. That's got to be a higher hurdle for you to get over. Right. And I'm sure it it's it
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really takes the heads of those companies to really work with you and to change the shape of
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the way a company is going to start to go after their clients or the customers and then also see
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a different vision. How is that conversation for you with them? Can you you think in your experience
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you can get that over a course of like a few months or sometimes it takes years to change
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a culture of a corporation? Yeah. So I'll share a couple of perspectives. To no surprise, the
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larger an organization is, the more inertia it has and the more time it takes to change direction.
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Now, as I am a fractional chief marketing officer and I've got a crew of fractional CMOs under,
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you know, in our collective called Salt Foundry. And so what I do is I embed myself within teams
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as their CMO. But the benefit to them is they get my time, a portion of it, because they don't
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need me for 40 to 80 hours a week and can pay just a portion of what a full-time CMO would cost.
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For sure, what I've seen is that generally fractional CMOs are hired to solve a problem
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and that problem is either sales or leads, which turn into sales. In my book, I do walk through
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kind of the five transitions, right, of how to help people move through the different shopping
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stages. But also there's a chapter seven where I outline the practical framework that I use
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with clients that I've called the SALT framework. SALT being an acronym for Strategy, Alignment,
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Leverage, and Traction. And there's a lot of quick, low-hanging fruit ways. And so very practically,
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when I enter in an organization, there is undoubtedly some low-hanging fruit. And whether
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it is around your brand and messaging, because your website copy was all about you, how long
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you've been around, how big you are, how big your team is, all about your product features and not
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actually about the problems that your customer needs solved, well, we can make a quick change
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and usually see a pretty immediate impact on the conversion rate. So there's always a balance of,
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as a responsible business, you do need growth, you do need profitability, but let's make sure
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that always in the background, we are working toward providing more and more value as we
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leverage the tactics for the near-term wins as well. Yeah, that's great. And that, you know,
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there have been, and even guests that have come on my show that I've spoken to that are
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based in the sales, retail, e-commerce world. I, not only does it seem to allow the company to
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connect with the customer base, I think in a way that you're talking about where they want to
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support the business because there's all this emotional connection with it. But I also get the
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sense that the people that are working there also, there's this culture, this really good, like,
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you know, you get to, I've run into some of those people that work in those corporations and they're
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just excited there, they have a purpose, they go to work, they enjoy their work, even though it could
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be just like admin work, they're just like, I'm working for a company that's trying to do something,
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make a change in the world. So I love this with the marketing you're going after.
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Is it, are there really like different levels of fits for the marketing that you're strategizing
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with them or is it for any type of business this can be applied to? Yeah, one thing I share as well
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is obviously marketing and some of the tactics will change over time, but the premise of marketing
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and the philosophy and what has worked over and over again, that foundation stays the same. It is
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who are you trying to target and what is their need and how can you meet that need and make them
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be aware that you can meet that need for them, right? And so this book really can be applied to,
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this would be great for marketing directors and multi-billion dollar organizations and also great
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for startups who are trying to get their head around, hey, where do I even focus first? What
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even is marketing? How do I get this message in front of somebody? And obviously nothing is all
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things to all people. The book really is written and targeted toward founders and early stage
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companies who are in their growth phase. So not super early, but probably in the one to five
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scaling to $50 million revenue phase, this will add so much clarity for them. But again,
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if you're just getting started, you can get a sense of how to do that. If you already are at a
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very robust, you know, a hundred person marketing team, there are plenty of stories and inspiration
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and tactics that will spark great conversations in your team.
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Great. Yeah. I think even if small businesses that are not quite up to where they need to be yet in
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terms of that, I feel like this is starting to sound like more of a certain high level marketing
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that it's scaling, right? If I'm correct in that, it sounds like there's this moment where, okay,
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we need to take this to another level and we're missing out on a couple key elements here in our
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marketing. This is where we need to go. But I think for those small businesses that are,
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might not be there yet, I would feel like this is a great book for them to read just so they can
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have a path and vision as to where they're going to go once they get there and then be able to one,
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maybe contact you, be able to talk to you about it. And two, really to feel like there is this
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next level, because I think a lot of small businesses that I've talked to, they see marketing
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as what you brought before earlier, that it's just these social media, get things out there,
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Google ads and whatnot, and that's it. And I think we're talking about this, let's really dive
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deep into our clientele and start to figure out what they really need and what they want from us,
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as opposed to just say, we have a product and we're just trying to get the product out there,
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right? Am I correct in thinking that way? Yeah. And what you said really speaks to the motivation
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of why I put this book together in the first place is, you ask any founder, CEO, or even
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marketing leader, hey, what books on marketing have you read? I mean, there are so few dedicated
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marketing books, and there are some books that kind of relate to sales or thinking about that
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territory. And Seth Godin has some great works that I've read and even referenced in the book.
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Malcolm Gladwell speaks toward this kind of topic, but there isn't just this one holistic way to
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help think through an entire marketing strategy and all the different pieces that fit into it.
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I create this framework where I talk about transitions between stages of the shopping
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journey as an excuse to cover every topic holistically, brand strategy, customer research,
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retargeting, loyalty and advocacy programs. All of that is packed in here in a very logical manner.
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So you can get your head around the entirety of marketing. A lot of the folks I meet are
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solopreneurs or smaller business owners who truthfully cannot even afford a fractional CMO
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or for whom that is not the right fit. They don't need five to 10 hours of strategy every week,
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right? And so this is a way to democratize that information for folks.
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Yeah. And I think over time, as e-commerce starts to become a part of so many different
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types of businesses, regardless if they, I almost think like if they want to or not,
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people are having to figure out how to sell online to get their products out there,
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whether it be food and beverage, you know, retail or people who just now selling services,
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you know, they're like, I'm going to start to figure out a way how to make money
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online while I'm sleeping. Do you think e-commerce in the next five to 10 years
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is going to look a lot different than it does now from your experience?
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Yeah. Let me see if I can pull up a chart real quick from my book.
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Oh, do you already have this?
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No, there's just something relevant I want to speak to,
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call it the value price cost model, the VPC model, and I will just speak to it. So there's
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something called the VPC model. I just found it. That is not something I came up with, but I
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put in the book and elaborate on as well. So essentially at the bottom is your cost,
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you know, the cost to produce an item or your margin or, you know,
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COGS if you're selling an item and then price in the middle, right? The price of the consumer
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and in between is your profit margin. Now, the value at the top is the customer's perceived
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value. And that is a summation of the utility, but also the brand and marketing that you can
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attach to a product. And so somebody might get $60 worth of utility out of a product that you
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sell for $50 that you made for $40, right? So you can sell it at $60, right? Because that's
00:19:02
theoretically what they'd be willing to pay for the utility of that product. Say it's a kitchen
00:19:06
knife or shoes to run a marathon. But what the true differentiator of how you can increase
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perceived value is your brand, how somebody thinks and identify with the products that
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you're selling and the marketing around, well, what is this design as a shoe for marathoners
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on purpose because it, you know, is for long distance as opposed to sprinting. That's where
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you can actually truly increase the perceived value. So again, marketing, whether it's online
00:19:33
or wherever it is, there's all these principles and yeah, absolutely. The mechanisms by which
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we will engage and shop are going to shift, right? So for example, today in 2020, a lot more
00:19:44
people are leveraging chat tools, whether chat GPT, cloud, for publicity, for shopping. And so
00:19:51
you, how do you optimize for those tools to recommend your product? Well, two answers,
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right? There are certainly different tactics. Yeah. Have FAQs. Well, like people are learning,
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you know, make sure you're in multiple different channels. Video is important. Reddit is helpful.
00:20:06
FAQ is yes, but also why is that helpful? Because the point is that the content is useful to people.
00:20:12
So if you are adding value at whatever channel it is, people are going to value that and the
00:20:18
algorithms will reward you for it. Yeah. And okay. So you bring up a good point and I don't know,
00:20:24
this is a little bit off topic, but I feel like you're an expert on it. So I would like to,
00:20:29
I've been thinking about this for a few months now, as we are using AI for tools, for now getting
00:20:37
suggestions for this stuff that we buy and the services and the places we want to go eat to,
00:20:43
as this is happening over the next, let's say two to three years, do you feel like we are going to
00:20:50
be shopping more with the AI first? And then it's sort of like how like AI is pushing us in a certain
00:20:58
way, or do you think the human element of it is going to hold enough value that we're always going
00:21:05
to be in control? Do you see what I'm getting at? I always wonder if over time we get so comfortable
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and the AI starts to be like, Hmm, I've got this person, Jack GVT has been, you know, getting a feel
00:21:18
for who you are as a person and what you like to do. So we're going to start to throw things out
00:21:23
there. And then it starts to guide you to shop a certain way where as up until maybe, you know,
00:21:31
beginning of 2025, we were really, I felt like in control. If we wanted to look for a red shirt,
00:21:37
we went and found a red shirt. But now it could be, I'm guessing maybe in a year, you know,
00:21:43
AI is going to be like, you know what, it looks like we might need to update your wardrobe. And
00:21:47
you're like, you're right. I'm going to start to shop this certain way. Do you think there is this
00:21:53
persuasive move that AI is going to make us go in a certain way without us really realizing it?
00:21:59
Yeah, I mean, two answers come to mind. First is that it's already happening, or it's happened for
00:22:05
the last 10 years. With the internet, with algorithms, with the way search, you know,
00:22:10
there is this convergence, this information bubble of the things you start engaging with,
00:22:15
you will just see more of, you know, whether that is in shopping or even politics, right?
00:22:20
We end up hearing things that are already like us. And it does move to, hey, a few people are
00:22:25
interested in this, and the technology pushes and snowball something, right? So that's already
00:22:30
happening, whether or not the chat, like format of tools take over or not. My other answer, though,
00:22:36
is, as I mentioned earlier, this is where marketing and humans will be necessary to differentiate.
00:22:42
I do think there will be a split. I think many of us, for less important decisions in our lives,
00:22:48
will be aided by something like AI to just take the burden of decision making away. I don't know
00:22:54
about you, but I feel decision fatigue all the time. I think on the flip side, how a brand
00:23:00
differentiates is by putting real humans that are authentic, vulnerable, real in front of the brand.
00:23:07
That is actually what's going to resonate with ultimately the human who is making the decision.
00:23:12
And so a lot of how you're going to keep people interested is by having real humans show up and
00:23:20
doing things that the algorithm would never push to begin with.
00:23:23
Yeah. Do you think that we're going to go
00:23:28
so far in the AI advertising? And, you know, speaking even broader to these videos,
00:23:38
it's tricky now to tell the difference of what's real, what's not. You almost need a second just to
00:23:43
look at something and then make a decision. But we're going to get thrown all of that stuff in
00:23:49
our face for a period of time. And then is it this moment that you're thinking that we just,
00:23:55
we're like, OK, we need to come back to real humans because we've had enough of this weird
00:24:01
world of non-humans and robots and AI coming at us. And we want to connect to people again.
00:24:08
Is that that moment you're thinking it's or is it already happening? You think right now in 2026?
00:24:14
I think there's elements already happening for sure. And there's a difference between
00:24:18
AI entertainment and the real problems it's solving for people, right? I have dashboards
00:24:24
of data or like raw data you can integrate through APIs and then have AI write reports.
00:24:30
And so you're saving hours of being able to ask the right questions and understand it and
00:24:36
leverage it in a way that's very useful. And I do think, you know, every next generation
00:24:43
is going to keep up with their BS meter. Back in the day, our parents' generation, you know,
00:24:49
thought when Photoshop came up around that, oh, my gosh, how can you even tell what's real or not?
00:24:54
I can guarantee every millennial can tell you if something's photoshopped or not. Now,
00:24:59
our millennials are freaking out about, oh, my gosh, with AI, how can you tell what's real or not?
00:25:04
I can guarantee you Gen Z can tell. We're going to figure it out. We can tell what's authentic.
00:25:09
Yeah. You know, when I was looking at everything in your bio and learning about you,
00:25:19
I had this question, and I don't know if you've even thought of this, but
00:25:23
do you think you would have been looking at marketing in this frame glasses if you didn't
00:25:30
go out and try to help the world when you were younger?
00:25:34
That was a great question. You know, what's interesting is I felt that with each next
00:25:39
phase of life, I have had to learn to be more empathetic, not only because it's good for others,
00:25:44
but because it's good for me. And I don't know if I didn't do the humanitarian thing at first,
00:25:49
or not, how that would have caught up. But I think folks who, and especially you talk to anyone
00:25:55
older, I mean, priorities shift as you get older, and turns out they're usually right.
00:26:00
Relationships are more important than achievement. You know, caring about people
00:26:04
and how they feel about you versus what they think about you might be more important.
00:26:08
I see that trend in my life as well. Now, it's interesting because I did grow up so
00:26:13
technology-driven, very binary, literally ones and zeros in engineering. You know,
00:26:19
for whatever reason, that ended up being less and less compelling with me over time,
00:26:23
as opposed to solving real human issues and really paying attention to the person in front of me.
00:26:29
And so, for sure, I can look at the hypotheticals. I don't know. But for sure, the stories that I
00:26:37
learned and wrestled with for years at that nonprofit, hearing about human adversity and
00:26:43
overcoming it and achievement and perseverance, and also how people can help and support each other,
00:26:49
how, you know, our efforts here may be the answer to somebody else's prayers.
00:26:54
That absolutely had a huge impact on my life and really continued to frame my understanding of
00:27:01
how empathy can be and should be applied to all areas of life, including marketing and business.
00:27:06
I love that. I love that answer. I feel like you can get a sense that it was always in you,
00:27:13
right? It was just going to come out in a different way, one or another. These were just
00:27:18
what happened in life. Just to wrap up, Jonathan, it was great learning about this. And I hope the
00:27:24
businesses can really connect with you to see how this is actually going to connect their business
00:27:31
with their clientele. If you could go back and give yourself some advice when you were younger,
00:27:40
in your engineer brain to where you are now, what do you think you would have told yourself
00:27:46
back then to maybe one piece of advice that would have changed your life for the better?
00:27:52
You know, it's funny. I just had this conversation with someone in the car about three months ago
00:27:58
after some alumni event. And I told that person, I wish I cared about psychology more earlier.
00:28:05
Wow. So it's interesting because I feel like you're slowly, and maybe five years from now,
00:28:13
we're going to have another answer that you're going to have. But I feel like you went from the
00:28:17
brain to the heart, and now you're coming back to the brain. There's these pieces of you that are
00:28:23
trying to learn more about the body from, I want to say, from a sort of scientific way, right? You
00:28:31
picked apart the brain for engineering. Now you're trying to get the people to the heart. And now
00:28:35
you're doing working marketing. And now you're like, I want to understand people more.
00:28:38
You know, it's funny. Again, that piece of connecting science and art,
00:28:46
I really love frameworks. I have a whole email newsletter on strategic frameworks
00:28:51
called The Strategic Frame. I nerd out over it, but really I nerd out over it with the final
00:28:57
application of how it affects real people, right? And that is the thing I would, you know, impart on
00:29:02
my younger self is care about people, the psychology, both the science and the heart elements of it
00:29:08
sooner. Understand trends and recognize that one thing is not better or worse, it just is,
00:29:14
right? And then serve people. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, great. Thank you, Jonathan.
00:29:20
And let's tell everyone where they can find you and also where they can get your book. Yeah,
00:29:25
absolutely. So the book is available on Amazon on paperback and Kindle. So just search Keeping
00:29:30
People Interested, and it will come up. You can find me at my author site on JonathanKLow.com.
00:29:38
And also I'm very active on LinkedIn as well. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jonathan.
00:29:42
It's a pleasure. Everyone, please check out his book. Also try to find and get in touch with
00:29:46
Jonathan. I think you're going to have a wealth of knowledge that he can share with you. Thank you,
00:29:50
Jonathan, for being on the podcast. Thank you, Jack. Really appreciate it.
00:29:53
Give this personal side of business.