Keeping People Interested: An Empathy-First Marketing Playbook

Transcript note: This transcript was generated from the episode audio and lightly formatted for readability. Speakers are Jet Bunditwong and Jonathan Lo.

[00:00:00] Welcome to The Personal Side of Business, where you hear real stories from real entrepreneurs.

[00:00:16] Hi, and welcome to The Personal Side of Business, where every business has a story.

[00:00:20] I'm your host, Jet Bunditwong. Today, my guest is going to talk about how empathy

[00:00:24] can play a key role in marketing and business growth. Welcome to the podcast, Jonathan Lo.

[00:00:29] Thank you. It's great to be here, Jet.

[00:00:31] Thanks for coming on. So let's start with your story. How did we get here? Because you have a

[00:00:37] pretty unique story of starting out in a place where it had nothing to do with marketing,

[00:00:42] and now you're here.

[00:00:43] Yeah, absolutely. So I grew up in the Chicago suburbs, and I always loved technology as a kid.

[00:00:50] You know, I remember spilling orange juice on my keyboard once and taking it all apart,

[00:00:56] cleaning it up. And, you know, I loved seeing the circuit boards and everything, and

[00:00:59] really resonated with science and math growing up. And so I studied electrical engineering

[00:01:05] in my undergrad. Interestingly, though, I discovered a little bit through the process

[00:01:10] of engineering that I love solving problems and the application of technology more than I loved

[00:01:17] doing the engineering itself. But in any case, I continued on my journey through college, and

[00:01:23] near the end of my time there, I learned about global poverty issues. And, you know,

[00:01:30] just how two billion people in the world live down less than $2 a day. You know,

[00:01:35] 20-some million people were modern-day slaves. Like, so many of these statistics just really

[00:01:40] wrecked me, and I felt very compelled to do something about it. So I ended up, after

[00:01:45] graduating, taking a one-year fellowship program with a global nonprofit based out of Seattle.

[00:01:51] And the intent there was to really help raise awareness on college campuses,

[00:01:56] something I was working on in my senior year, awareness and funds, and just helping

[00:02:00] wake up the first world to really what's going on more broadly. And so I ended up taking a

[00:02:07] fellowship program with this nonprofit, loved it, felt so compelled to stay that after my year

[00:02:12] with them, I asked, you know, how else can I help? And so we found me a role in data analytics

[00:02:19] because I could deal with numbers. And eventually I ended up giving, taking on a role that I said,

[00:02:25] back in the day, you know, the job that you gave a millennial who had no discernible skills

[00:02:30] was what? Organic social media marketing. So I took over their Facebook page and Twitter and

[00:02:34] all of that, and helped grow the page over a million fans, which to this day is a lot,

[00:02:40] but back then was very significant. And I learned marketing so quick when every single post out

[00:02:46] there, right? If you don't get 300 to a thousand engagements within minutes, you know, something's

[00:02:51] wrong. So that was the beginning of my journey into marketing. And I'm happy to share much more

[00:02:56] about my path as I dove deeper into that. Yeah, that's, that's interesting. And question for you,

[00:03:02] did you get interested in the marketing side? Was it, I mean, outside of your goal to really help

[00:03:10] people, but I felt like you're that engineering brain was really what drove you, right? Learning

[00:03:15] those numbers and making it come to use for something else. Was that a driving force in it?

[00:03:21] Yeah. So, you know, what's funny is, and thank you for asking, it took me probably over a decade to

[00:03:27] decide I actually liked marketing, but it served me really well. And I realized why I kept sticking

[00:03:33] with it, right? Because out of the organic social media piece, I ended up working in product

[00:03:38] management, helped launch their first mobile optimized website, which is increased mobile

[00:03:42] acquisitions by over 50%. I ended up managing a multi-million dollar digital advertising budget.

[00:03:48] I realized that I love the balance of the art and the science of marketing, right? There's,

[00:03:56] there's numbers, there's technology, there's all these pieces, automations. And at the same time,

[00:04:02] there's this creative element of copywriting and imagery and design. And so it turns out I,

[00:04:08] even in engineering, that was the part I liked. It's this interesting marriage of being creative

[00:04:12] for the sake of solving broader problems. And it turns out that's exactly what marketing is.

[00:04:17] Do you think coming from, you know, we're going to get into it more of that human aspect and

[00:04:23] empathetic side of marketing that you are building your business upon? Do you think

[00:04:28] coming from that side really can never get taken out of the true marketing sense? Like if you,

[00:04:36] if you were, all this AI automation that we have, all this computerized digital stuff that we

[00:04:42] carry over into now almost everything we do, do you think the human side will always need to be

[00:04:48] there in order for marketing to exist and grow the way you're, you're looking at it now?

[00:04:53] Yeah, you know, what's fascinating is I actually think that in the age of AI, marketing is going

[00:04:58] to be even more necessary, marketing from humans. And the reason I say that is because technology

[00:05:04] continues to democratize things such as product development. You know, the ability to vibe code

[00:05:10] a functional application, whether or not you're building pieces on cloud or lovable these days,

[00:05:16] whatever it looks like, something you can actually go to market with and provide value

[00:05:20] and start solving problems, that barrier is reducing over and over again. So how do you

[00:05:27] differentiate really is actually going to be in your marketing and branding. And in fact,

[00:05:34] related to even my, something I was very excited for this week was the launch of my debut book,

[00:05:39] which is called Keeping People Interested. Your ability to keep people interested is always going

[00:05:45] to need a human element and a human creativity, that person to tie it all together, accelerated

[00:05:52] by AI, yes, but not replaced by. Yeah, that's interesting. It's a great segue that I was

[00:05:58] wanting to get to your book. When you're sharing this information, what do you think is the key

[00:06:04] element in making us different or making a company different when they're marketing and using that,

[00:06:10] that human element? What do you think is that, that key element that either companies are missing

[00:06:15] out on or they need to improve on in order to bring that to light even more? Yeah, absolutely.

[00:06:21] And thank you for asking. And I'll even just kind of show your folks here. This book is called

[00:06:26] Keeping People Interested, and the premise is that it's the only KPI that really matters, right? And

[00:06:32] so as an engineer, obviously numbers are incredibly important, but the ability to keep someone

[00:06:38] interested is the crux of what will help companies be successful or not. And so you naturally should

[00:06:44] be asking me, well, how do you keep people interested? The premise of the book and my

[00:06:48] philosophy is that to keep people interested, you need to be interested in them. And what that

[00:06:53] means is having empathy for them along every stage of the shopping journey that they're in

[00:06:58] and constantly providing value, not simply asking over and over again for the sale. You know, I talk

[00:07:04] about what I call the 97% rule in my book, where so many companies, especially e-commerce companies,

[00:07:12] are obsessed with their conversion rate. The 2% to 3% or 4% will go with 3% of people who come to

[00:07:19] the website and buy today. And when you're at a large scale, I ended up working for a $2 billion

[00:07:24] e-commerce company. Like every BIP basis point, one hundredth of a percent difference in conversion

[00:07:31] rate really did net out to hundreds of thousands of dollars in revenue for the year. It makes sense

[00:07:37] why they were focused there. But the premise of the book and what I've really come to learn

[00:07:42] and believe through my years experience with multi-billion dollar organizations, with startups,

[00:07:48] with grad school, is that you've got to care about the other 97%. That's why it's called the 97% rule.

[00:07:54] Help people by providing value if they need education or inspiration or a sense of belonging

[00:08:02] with your brand. I go into all these different strategies and tactics because that's really how

[00:08:07] companies will end up achieving long-term sustainable, profitable growth. It's companies

[00:08:12] that add value that grow in the long run, companies that chase profitability today and obsess over

[00:08:19] market share, you know, that don't think about the human that's actually purchasing your service or

[00:08:25] product. Those are the folks that will end up not succeeding. Yeah, that's a great point. Do you

[00:08:31] think that there are enough of these large corporations, especially the ones that are based

[00:08:36] in the e-commerce space, that are putting weight into this human side of marketing to go really

[00:08:45] connect with those people? Or do you think there's such a huge machine that they're just looking at

[00:08:50] numbers and they've gotten away from that? You know, it's really tricky. The trend that I've seen

[00:08:55] is with more established publicly traded companies, they have shareholders and they

[00:08:59] have quarterly targets to hit. And it is very difficult to truly be customer-centric in the

[00:09:05] long run when you have all these pressures of investors or folks who demand profitability

[00:09:12] and dividends and growth. Now, the trend that I've seen on the flip side is that companies,

[00:09:17] large ones who are still founder-led, you know, are able to take this longer-term view because

[00:09:22] investors have bought into the vision of what they're trying to accomplish in the long run.

[00:09:26] And those are the companies that are able to say, I don't even care about making money today.

[00:09:31] I care about adding value and I know I'll make money in the future. Now, there's a tension,

[00:09:36] of course, because what essentially I was speaking toward will naturally go down toward that, you

[00:09:41] know, venture capital seeking the unicorn path. And that's not for everyone. But there are many

[00:09:48] companies that are just saying, you know, we'll figure out the money thing. We just got to add

[00:09:51] value. And those are the companies that on the average will be successful.

[00:09:56] And I'm assuming when you, the companies that you've worked with, if you go in there and you

[00:10:01] start to feel and get a sense that they're open-minded to what you're trying to strategize

[00:10:06] with them, I'm sure that's like, that's just like, oh, that's a sigh of relief. Right. But then you

[00:10:10] go into a company that's like, no, no, no, this doesn't really work for us. We're just looking at

[00:10:14] numbers. That's got to be a higher hurdle for you to get over. Right. And I'm sure it it's it

[00:10:22] really takes the heads of those companies to really work with you and to change the shape of

[00:10:27] the way a company is going to start to go after their clients or the customers and then also see

[00:10:32] a different vision. How is that conversation for you with them? Can you you think in your experience

[00:10:38] you can get that over a course of like a few months or sometimes it takes years to change

[00:10:42] a culture of a corporation? Yeah. So I'll share a couple of perspectives. To no surprise, the

[00:10:49] larger an organization is, the more inertia it has and the more time it takes to change direction.

[00:10:54] Now, as I am a fractional chief marketing officer and I've got a crew of fractional CMOs under,

[00:11:00] you know, in our collective called Salt Foundry. And so what I do is I embed myself within teams

[00:11:07] as their CMO. But the benefit to them is they get my time, a portion of it, because they don't

[00:11:13] need me for 40 to 80 hours a week and can pay just a portion of what a full-time CMO would cost.

[00:11:20] For sure, what I've seen is that generally fractional CMOs are hired to solve a problem

[00:11:25] and that problem is either sales or leads, which turn into sales. In my book, I do walk through

[00:11:31] kind of the five transitions, right, of how to help people move through the different shopping

[00:11:36] stages. But also there's a chapter seven where I outline the practical framework that I use

[00:11:43] with clients that I've called the SALT framework. SALT being an acronym for Strategy, Alignment,

[00:11:49] Leverage, and Traction. And there's a lot of quick, low-hanging fruit ways. And so very practically,

[00:11:55] when I enter in an organization, there is undoubtedly some low-hanging fruit. And whether

[00:12:00] it is around your brand and messaging, because your website copy was all about you, how long

[00:12:05] you've been around, how big you are, how big your team is, all about your product features and not

[00:12:10] actually about the problems that your customer needs solved, well, we can make a quick change

[00:12:14] and usually see a pretty immediate impact on the conversion rate. So there's always a balance of,

[00:12:20] as a responsible business, you do need growth, you do need profitability, but let's make sure

[00:12:25] that always in the background, we are working toward providing more and more value as we

[00:12:30] leverage the tactics for the near-term wins as well. Yeah, that's great. And that, you know,

[00:12:36] there have been, and even guests that have come on my show that I've spoken to that are

[00:12:41] based in the sales, retail, e-commerce world. I, not only does it seem to allow the company to

[00:12:50] connect with the customer base, I think in a way that you're talking about where they want to

[00:12:55] support the business because there's all this emotional connection with it. But I also get the

[00:13:01] sense that the people that are working there also, there's this culture, this really good, like,

[00:13:08] you know, you get to, I've run into some of those people that work in those corporations and they're

[00:13:13] just excited there, they have a purpose, they go to work, they enjoy their work, even though it could

[00:13:19] be just like admin work, they're just like, I'm working for a company that's trying to do something,

[00:13:24] make a change in the world. So I love this with the marketing you're going after.

[00:13:30] Is it, are there really like different levels of fits for the marketing that you're strategizing

[00:13:36] with them or is it for any type of business this can be applied to? Yeah, one thing I share as well

[00:13:41] is obviously marketing and some of the tactics will change over time, but the premise of marketing

[00:13:47] and the philosophy and what has worked over and over again, that foundation stays the same. It is

[00:13:53] who are you trying to target and what is their need and how can you meet that need and make them

[00:13:58] be aware that you can meet that need for them, right? And so this book really can be applied to,

[00:14:04] this would be great for marketing directors and multi-billion dollar organizations and also great

[00:14:09] for startups who are trying to get their head around, hey, where do I even focus first? What

[00:14:14] even is marketing? How do I get this message in front of somebody? And obviously nothing is all

[00:14:20] things to all people. The book really is written and targeted toward founders and early stage

[00:14:25] companies who are in their growth phase. So not super early, but probably in the one to five

[00:14:31] scaling to $50 million revenue phase, this will add so much clarity for them. But again,

[00:14:36] if you're just getting started, you can get a sense of how to do that. If you already are at a

[00:14:42] very robust, you know, a hundred person marketing team, there are plenty of stories and inspiration

[00:14:47] and tactics that will spark great conversations in your team.

[00:14:50] Great. Yeah. I think even if small businesses that are not quite up to where they need to be yet in

[00:14:57] terms of that, I feel like this is starting to sound like more of a certain high level marketing

[00:15:01] that it's scaling, right? If I'm correct in that, it sounds like there's this moment where, okay,

[00:15:08] we need to take this to another level and we're missing out on a couple key elements here in our

[00:15:13] marketing. This is where we need to go. But I think for those small businesses that are,

[00:15:17] might not be there yet, I would feel like this is a great book for them to read just so they can

[00:15:22] have a path and vision as to where they're going to go once they get there and then be able to one,

[00:15:27] maybe contact you, be able to talk to you about it. And two, really to feel like there is this

[00:15:34] next level, because I think a lot of small businesses that I've talked to, they see marketing

[00:15:39] as what you brought before earlier, that it's just these social media, get things out there,

[00:15:45] Google ads and whatnot, and that's it. And I think we're talking about this, let's really dive

[00:15:52] deep into our clientele and start to figure out what they really need and what they want from us,

[00:15:58] as opposed to just say, we have a product and we're just trying to get the product out there,

[00:16:01] right? Am I correct in thinking that way? Yeah. And what you said really speaks to the motivation

[00:16:06] of why I put this book together in the first place is, you ask any founder, CEO, or even

[00:16:12] marketing leader, hey, what books on marketing have you read? I mean, there are so few dedicated

[00:16:17] marketing books, and there are some books that kind of relate to sales or thinking about that

[00:16:22] territory. And Seth Godin has some great works that I've read and even referenced in the book.

[00:16:27] Malcolm Gladwell speaks toward this kind of topic, but there isn't just this one holistic way to

[00:16:33] help think through an entire marketing strategy and all the different pieces that fit into it.

[00:16:38] I create this framework where I talk about transitions between stages of the shopping

[00:16:42] journey as an excuse to cover every topic holistically, brand strategy, customer research,

[00:16:49] retargeting, loyalty and advocacy programs. All of that is packed in here in a very logical manner.

[00:16:56] So you can get your head around the entirety of marketing. A lot of the folks I meet are

[00:17:00] solopreneurs or smaller business owners who truthfully cannot even afford a fractional CMO

[00:17:06] or for whom that is not the right fit. They don't need five to 10 hours of strategy every week,

[00:17:13] right? And so this is a way to democratize that information for folks.

[00:17:17] Yeah. And I think over time, as e-commerce starts to become a part of so many different

[00:17:23] types of businesses, regardless if they, I almost think like if they want to or not,

[00:17:28] people are having to figure out how to sell online to get their products out there,

[00:17:32] whether it be food and beverage, you know, retail or people who just now selling services,

[00:17:38] you know, they're like, I'm going to start to figure out a way how to make money

[00:17:41] online while I'm sleeping. Do you think e-commerce in the next five to 10 years

[00:17:48] is going to look a lot different than it does now from your experience?

[00:17:54] Yeah. Let me see if I can pull up a chart real quick from my book.

[00:18:00] Oh, do you already have this?

[00:18:04] No, there's just something relevant I want to speak to,

[00:18:07] call it the value price cost model, the VPC model, and I will just speak to it. So there's

[00:18:16] something called the VPC model. I just found it. That is not something I came up with, but I

[00:18:21] put in the book and elaborate on as well. So essentially at the bottom is your cost,

[00:18:27] you know, the cost to produce an item or your margin or, you know,

[00:18:30] COGS if you're selling an item and then price in the middle, right? The price of the consumer

[00:18:35] and in between is your profit margin. Now, the value at the top is the customer's perceived

[00:18:41] value. And that is a summation of the utility, but also the brand and marketing that you can

[00:18:48] attach to a product. And so somebody might get $60 worth of utility out of a product that you

[00:18:56] sell for $50 that you made for $40, right? So you can sell it at $60, right? Because that's

[00:19:02] theoretically what they'd be willing to pay for the utility of that product. Say it's a kitchen

[00:19:06] knife or shoes to run a marathon. But what the true differentiator of how you can increase

[00:19:12] perceived value is your brand, how somebody thinks and identify with the products that

[00:19:17] you're selling and the marketing around, well, what is this design as a shoe for marathoners

[00:19:23] on purpose because it, you know, is for long distance as opposed to sprinting. That's where

[00:19:27] you can actually truly increase the perceived value. So again, marketing, whether it's online

[00:19:33] or wherever it is, there's all these principles and yeah, absolutely. The mechanisms by which

[00:19:38] we will engage and shop are going to shift, right? So for example, today in 2020, a lot more

[00:19:44] people are leveraging chat tools, whether chat GPT, cloud, for publicity, for shopping. And so

[00:19:51] you, how do you optimize for those tools to recommend your product? Well, two answers,

[00:19:57] right? There are certainly different tactics. Yeah. Have FAQs. Well, like people are learning,

[00:20:02] you know, make sure you're in multiple different channels. Video is important. Reddit is helpful.

[00:20:06] FAQ is yes, but also why is that helpful? Because the point is that the content is useful to people.

[00:20:12] So if you are adding value at whatever channel it is, people are going to value that and the

[00:20:18] algorithms will reward you for it. Yeah. And okay. So you bring up a good point and I don't know,

[00:20:24] this is a little bit off topic, but I feel like you're an expert on it. So I would like to,

[00:20:29] I've been thinking about this for a few months now, as we are using AI for tools, for now getting

[00:20:37] suggestions for this stuff that we buy and the services and the places we want to go eat to,

[00:20:43] as this is happening over the next, let's say two to three years, do you feel like we are going to

[00:20:50] be shopping more with the AI first? And then it's sort of like how like AI is pushing us in a certain

[00:20:58] way, or do you think the human element of it is going to hold enough value that we're always going

[00:21:05] to be in control? Do you see what I'm getting at? I always wonder if over time we get so comfortable

[00:21:12] and the AI starts to be like, Hmm, I've got this person, Jack GVT has been, you know, getting a feel

[00:21:18] for who you are as a person and what you like to do. So we're going to start to throw things out

[00:21:23] there. And then it starts to guide you to shop a certain way where as up until maybe, you know,

[00:21:31] beginning of 2025, we were really, I felt like in control. If we wanted to look for a red shirt,

[00:21:37] we went and found a red shirt. But now it could be, I'm guessing maybe in a year, you know,

[00:21:43] AI is going to be like, you know what, it looks like we might need to update your wardrobe. And

[00:21:47] you're like, you're right. I'm going to start to shop this certain way. Do you think there is this

[00:21:53] persuasive move that AI is going to make us go in a certain way without us really realizing it?

[00:21:59] Yeah, I mean, two answers come to mind. First is that it's already happening, or it's happened for

[00:22:05] the last 10 years. With the internet, with algorithms, with the way search, you know,

[00:22:10] there is this convergence, this information bubble of the things you start engaging with,

[00:22:15] you will just see more of, you know, whether that is in shopping or even politics, right?

[00:22:20] We end up hearing things that are already like us. And it does move to, hey, a few people are

[00:22:25] interested in this, and the technology pushes and snowball something, right? So that's already

[00:22:30] happening, whether or not the chat, like format of tools take over or not. My other answer, though,

[00:22:36] is, as I mentioned earlier, this is where marketing and humans will be necessary to differentiate.

[00:22:42] I do think there will be a split. I think many of us, for less important decisions in our lives,

[00:22:48] will be aided by something like AI to just take the burden of decision making away. I don't know

[00:22:54] about you, but I feel decision fatigue all the time. I think on the flip side, how a brand

[00:23:00] differentiates is by putting real humans that are authentic, vulnerable, real in front of the brand.

[00:23:07] That is actually what's going to resonate with ultimately the human who is making the decision.

[00:23:12] And so a lot of how you're going to keep people interested is by having real humans show up and

[00:23:20] doing things that the algorithm would never push to begin with.

[00:23:23] Yeah. Do you think that we're going to go

[00:23:28] so far in the AI advertising? And, you know, speaking even broader to these videos,

[00:23:38] it's tricky now to tell the difference of what's real, what's not. You almost need a second just to

[00:23:43] look at something and then make a decision. But we're going to get thrown all of that stuff in

[00:23:49] our face for a period of time. And then is it this moment that you're thinking that we just,

[00:23:55] we're like, OK, we need to come back to real humans because we've had enough of this weird

[00:24:01] world of non-humans and robots and AI coming at us. And we want to connect to people again.

[00:24:08] Is that that moment you're thinking it's or is it already happening? You think right now in 2026?

[00:24:14] I think there's elements already happening for sure. And there's a difference between

[00:24:18] AI entertainment and the real problems it's solving for people, right? I have dashboards

[00:24:24] of data or like raw data you can integrate through APIs and then have AI write reports.

[00:24:30] And so you're saving hours of being able to ask the right questions and understand it and

[00:24:36] leverage it in a way that's very useful. And I do think, you know, every next generation

[00:24:43] is going to keep up with their BS meter. Back in the day, our parents' generation, you know,

[00:24:49] thought when Photoshop came up around that, oh, my gosh, how can you even tell what's real or not?

[00:24:54] I can guarantee every millennial can tell you if something's photoshopped or not. Now,

[00:24:59] our millennials are freaking out about, oh, my gosh, with AI, how can you tell what's real or not?

[00:25:04] I can guarantee you Gen Z can tell. We're going to figure it out. We can tell what's authentic.

[00:25:09] Yeah. You know, when I was looking at everything in your bio and learning about you,

[00:25:19] I had this question, and I don't know if you've even thought of this, but

[00:25:23] do you think you would have been looking at marketing in this frame glasses if you didn't

[00:25:30] go out and try to help the world when you were younger?

[00:25:34] That was a great question. You know, what's interesting is I felt that with each next

[00:25:39] phase of life, I have had to learn to be more empathetic, not only because it's good for others,

[00:25:44] but because it's good for me. And I don't know if I didn't do the humanitarian thing at first,

[00:25:49] or not, how that would have caught up. But I think folks who, and especially you talk to anyone

[00:25:55] older, I mean, priorities shift as you get older, and turns out they're usually right.

[00:26:00] Relationships are more important than achievement. You know, caring about people

[00:26:04] and how they feel about you versus what they think about you might be more important.

[00:26:08] I see that trend in my life as well. Now, it's interesting because I did grow up so

[00:26:13] technology-driven, very binary, literally ones and zeros in engineering. You know,

[00:26:19] for whatever reason, that ended up being less and less compelling with me over time,

[00:26:23] as opposed to solving real human issues and really paying attention to the person in front of me.

[00:26:29] And so, for sure, I can look at the hypotheticals. I don't know. But for sure, the stories that I

[00:26:37] learned and wrestled with for years at that nonprofit, hearing about human adversity and

[00:26:43] overcoming it and achievement and perseverance, and also how people can help and support each other,

[00:26:49] how, you know, our efforts here may be the answer to somebody else's prayers.

[00:26:54] That absolutely had a huge impact on my life and really continued to frame my understanding of

[00:27:01] how empathy can be and should be applied to all areas of life, including marketing and business.

[00:27:06] I love that. I love that answer. I feel like you can get a sense that it was always in you,

[00:27:13] right? It was just going to come out in a different way, one or another. These were just

[00:27:18] what happened in life. Just to wrap up, Jonathan, it was great learning about this. And I hope the

[00:27:24] businesses can really connect with you to see how this is actually going to connect their business

[00:27:31] with their clientele. If you could go back and give yourself some advice when you were younger,

[00:27:40] in your engineer brain to where you are now, what do you think you would have told yourself

[00:27:46] back then to maybe one piece of advice that would have changed your life for the better?

[00:27:52] You know, it's funny. I just had this conversation with someone in the car about three months ago

[00:27:58] after some alumni event. And I told that person, I wish I cared about psychology more earlier.

[00:28:05] Wow. So it's interesting because I feel like you're slowly, and maybe five years from now,

[00:28:13] we're going to have another answer that you're going to have. But I feel like you went from the

[00:28:17] brain to the heart, and now you're coming back to the brain. There's these pieces of you that are

[00:28:23] trying to learn more about the body from, I want to say, from a sort of scientific way, right? You

[00:28:31] picked apart the brain for engineering. Now you're trying to get the people to the heart. And now

[00:28:35] you're doing working marketing. And now you're like, I want to understand people more.

[00:28:38] You know, it's funny. Again, that piece of connecting science and art,

[00:28:46] I really love frameworks. I have a whole email newsletter on strategic frameworks

[00:28:51] called The Strategic Frame. I nerd out over it, but really I nerd out over it with the final

[00:28:57] application of how it affects real people, right? And that is the thing I would, you know, impart on

[00:29:02] my younger self is care about people, the psychology, both the science and the heart elements of it

[00:29:08] sooner. Understand trends and recognize that one thing is not better or worse, it just is,

[00:29:14] right? And then serve people. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, great. Thank you, Jonathan.

[00:29:20] And let's tell everyone where they can find you and also where they can get your book. Yeah,

[00:29:25] absolutely. So the book is available on Amazon on paperback and Kindle. So just search Keeping

[00:29:30] People Interested, and it will come up. You can find me at my author site on JonathanKLow.com.

[00:29:38] And also I'm very active on LinkedIn as well. All right. Well, thank you so much, Jonathan.

[00:29:42] It's a pleasure. Everyone, please check out his book. Also try to find and get in touch with

[00:29:46] Jonathan. I think you're going to have a wealth of knowledge that he can share with you. Thank you,

[00:29:50] Jonathan, for being on the podcast. Thank you, Jack. Really appreciate it.

[00:29:53] Give this personal side of business.