Owning Your Voice | Pam Covarrubias

Transcript note: This full episode transcript was lightly formatted for readability. Speakers are Jet Bunditwong and Pam Covarrubias.

[00:02] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah. Hi, and welcome to the Personal Side of Business Podcast, where every business has a story. I'm your host, Jet Bunditwong. Today I'm joined by Pam Covarrubias. She's a coach, a speaker, and host of the globally acclaimed podcast, Café con Pam. She's on a mission to help first generation women break free from the Calladita culture and step into their bold, unapologetic selves. We're gonna talk about business, liberation, healing, and what it really means to own your main character energy. Welcome to the podcast, Pam.

[00:35] Pam Covarrubias: Thank you, Jet. I'm so excited to be here.

[00:37] Jet Bunditwong: Yes, I'm excited to have you. So tell us how did we get here?

[00:42] Pam Covarrubias: With a microphone from a retired rapper and an idea.

[00:48] Jet Bunditwong: Well, I did not know that. When you you do you feel like you were one of the first podcast pioneers?

[00:55] Pam Covarrubias: I was one of the first Latino podcasts. For sure. I had been listening to podcasts for three years and I kept looking for stories of people that look like me, like us. And those didn't exist. And so the very few times when people of color would show up to podcasts, the questions that the hosts would ask were so surface that I'm like, ask them about their story and their immigrant parents and Why they got here and you know, and they would just go so surface level that I got so frustrated. It took me three years to say, Okay, fine, if nobody's gonna do it, I guess I need to do it. And I went on Crexist and I found a microphone and when I picked it up, he was like, Yeah, I'm I retired from rapping and here you go. What are you gonna do with it? And I was like, I guess I'm gonna start a podcast. And he was like, Okay, good luck.

[01:48] Jet Bunditwong: What was your what was your research into research?

[01:52] Pam Covarrubias: So it was it was nothing. There wasn't a lot of content around starting a podcast first. 'Cause this is twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen. And so what I r realized without doing a lot of research, I gave myself two hours of research because I have ADHD and I tend to go into rabbit holes. And so I have to l time limit myself. And so I was like two hours, whatever you find, whatever you learn, two, three hours. I don't remember the exact number, but it like a limited time. Whatever you learn, that's what's going to set you free, basically. And so what I realized is that I needed a microphone, I needed a tool, a software to edit the audio. I needed some additional things that I needed to plug to my computer, but I was like, that's too much. Is there an easier way? Because also I think ADHD's a superpower. And so how could I be resourceful with it without because I don't have funds either. So it was all from my salary. And I realized that I could just plug a microphone directly to my computer and it would record. And at the time, these fancy types of podcasts with video did not exist. It was audio. And so I didn't have to worry about a studio. I didn't have it was all virtual. And there were some tools coming up at the time. I think Zencaster was one that did exist. And so I tried those. And We started my very first interview was on Skype.

[03:26] Jet Bunditwong: my god.

[03:26] Pam Covarrubias: Do you remember that? That never made it to the podcast, but it was on Skype. And so I didn't I didn't know a lot. And the the final launch came when I was having dinner with a friend of mine who's a music producer. He lives in LA. He came to San Diego and you know, anytime somebody comes to San Diego, they're like, Let's have dinner. At the end of the dinner, he's walking me to my car and he's like, So what's next? And I was like, you know, I bought a microphone. I want to start asking questions, but I don't know. And I want it to be over coffee. I want it to be like a good conversation. Like we have when you call a friend, you're like, let's go have coffee. And he was like, So cafe companies and I was like, let's do it. He's from Venezuela. And shout out to Henry. And I said, I love that. The only thing that's missing is editing. I don't know how to edit. And he looked at me and he's like Do you remember what I do? I produce music. Just so you know. I I like I have all the things. And I was like, my gosh, you could be my editor and he's like, I'm gonna charge you because I want you to take this series. And he was my first editor.

[04:40] Jet Bunditwong: Wow. Well, did you have a vision a like an end vision when you started podcasts? Or was it just like I'm just gonna start and see what happens?

[04:50] Pam Covarrubias: The end vision at the time was finding models because I was in corporate. I had I was at the the time I was working directly under the CEO. I was sitting at tables where nobody looked like me. I was also in an indust in the construction side of the business, which was very limit like no women. And like the two women that were there were just not at all like me. And so I was craving models. I was craving hearing the stories of people that just did amazing things because they could. And so the end goal at the time was to find models for me in a very selfish way. So I always tell people, Kafka Compan a selfish project and that turned into our project.

[05:38] Jet Bunditwong: Wow. What were you what were the some of the stories that you were getting from models? Were w was it were they all like, this is just gonna be about I guess the industry or were you actually hearing some really interesting background stories?

[05:52] Pam Covarrubias: So many interesting one of my few guests, so I made a list of my top fifty wish list and I ran out of pe like that list was completed. Wow. Yeah. I still have like Jose Hernandez the astronaut. You know, I still have some that we're we have we're not there yet, but we will. and I wanted to hear the stories of resilience. And so from a good friend of mine who's an eighth grade teacher and hearing the stories and how she gets inspired by her students and how she sees them grow and takes them on trips and things like they don't have to be the stories I was craving to hear didn't have to be like I built this multi million dollar thing. It's it was more about impact. You know, I wanted to hear more about how are you actually changing your community. And there was a woman, Irma, who came, she started a play on how to say her her name right. And her name is Irma, it's not Irma, you know. And so she came and we did that in person actually. And she was a lawyer, or she's a lawyer, I think, and she was like, No, I'm tired of people calling me Irma and so she made a whole play. And so I wanted to hear the stories of people that did the unconventional and the just out of curiosity, you know, out in her case she got tired of people calling her the wrong name. So she said, How am I going to create impact instead of just being angry about it?

[07:30] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah. And I think the same thing has happened in this podcast over the short amount of time where I thought I was gonna hear a lot more about business stories and you start to find out there's a lot of commonalities in why people went from a nine to five or in an office to cr being an entrepreneur because something personal inspired them. Yes. an event in life changed them and you're like, this is Really, I think entrepreneurs are not really so much about the money. I mean, I think that keeps the business afloat, but there is this inspiration and go, I wanna I wanna do something different, right? And then that little seed becomes like this tree that starts to sprout out all these branches and you're like, I can't I can't I can't not do this anymore, you know? along that journey, when you are starting to now develop this, when does all of these other components of being speaker and working with businesses and trying to inspire Latina women come into play.

[08:33] Pam Covarrubias: When I started the podcast, I also joined Toastmasters because I realized that I needed to feel confident. So it was it was not necessarily what people were saying. It was just my own internalized I need to be more professional or whatever. And so I was in Toastmasters for five years or something. I went through all of the roles. I am one of those people that when I join a group, I take on like I have to very work very hard not to take on leadership roles because I automatically get placed in them.

[09:11] Jet Bunditwong: Like you look like a leader. Stop

[09:13] Pam Covarrubias: Well I'm an eldest daughter, so I don't know. It probably comes from there. but so in Toastmasters I went through all the roles. And from there it was really fun to get in front of people. And I'm a former theater kid. So before I was an art kid, I was a theater kid. And I think that love for the stage just came back out when I started in Toastmasters. And I got in my corporate role, I my last role was training. And so I got put in front of five thousand people to train them. And these were all construction workers, which is one of the hardest audiences you can talk to because you have to keep their attention. I'm a woman in a very male dominated industry. And so that was a great challenge for me to If I could talk to five thousand construction workers and they came after my training and said, This was one of the most entertaining things you I've attended, I was like, Okay, I think I can speak in front of people

[10:21] Jet Bunditwong: Didn't did you did you s foresee that as a part of your business at that time? Or was this an added tool that you can have in your belt and say, if it ever needs, I can do this?

[10:32] Pam Covarrubias: I did, but I just didn't believe I could. That came after. And so I I still do, but I would go to a lot of conferences and see women. I started finding conferences and events of people that look like me. And one that actually changed me so much, one day I'm gonna interview her is Nelly Galan, who I went to one of her events and I recently I'm like getting closer, you know, it's like one degree of separation. 'Cause I recently talked to the guy that put this event together. And she was a Latina who at the time, this is like w even prior to Café con Pam, this is probably like twenty twelve, twenty eleven. And she said, By buildings, not shoes. And she's known for this. And so that is what led me to be like, I can be on that stage. Like she was so inspiring to be like because she shared a story of how when she was starting her business, she needed a space to have her office. And so she was like, Let me just save some money and buy the building instead of you know? And I was like, How cool is that?

[11:42] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah. Yeah. It's just like I'm just gonna take the middleman out. I'm just gonna do this all myself. What what were you wanting to share? What was the message that you wanted to share when you were thinking about becoming a speaker?

[11:47] Pam Covarrubias: Move it.

[11:56] Pam Covarrubias: I wanted to share my story and I didn't know what that story was. And so it took a lot of exploring. And my body of work now has involved, you've talked about Gaida Culture, and it took a lot of exploration and bringing in my lived experience and my earned experience and understanding what I bring to the table and what value I bring to the table. to be grounded in my truth, to be able to say this is what I want to talk about. So it wasn't like immediate 'cause I also did I was looking for the models, but I didn't have the mentors. So one thing is to look up to someone, one thing is for them to mentor you. And so we're still working on it, I think.

[12:42] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah. And you know, the I I th from your podcasts and and YouTube and your speaking to women to I guess share that culture and where do you think the change is gonna come from? Do you think it's you have to touch upon the male side to be have men, you need to understand what's happening or do the women have to overcome this in such a huge wave? And then change that, right? 'Cause when I was driving here coming to to interview you today, I was thinking about that and go, Wh where does that start, right? Because there is a point where we can talk about it all we want, but if the change doesn't get made where it's the source of it, when does that change? Right? So in you interviewing all these different women and you going through it, what is what do you think is One of the first steps if you had it in a dream world.

[13:45] Pam Covarrubias: I think it starts with women because women birth men, women raise men. And so we changed the narrative from the womb.

[13:55] Jet Bunditwong: Hmm, I like that. I like that. Now when when you you hear these stories, you think, do you do you get a sense and a touch of that this is exactly my story too? I've been through this. Or does every story have like, wow, I it's so different, right? Is it i is every th a story a snowflake or do is there a commonality in all these women that yeah, we've all gone through this and it comes down to this.

[14:22] Pam Covarrubias: So I came up with the five wounds that keep us quiet. And so do all of the women that I work with have the wounds? The short answer is yes. But one thing that I've realized is that they we could be overcompensated or undercompensated in them. And everyone has their own way of doing it. So it's I often think about Tamales, you Mexican Mexican American and tamales, you've had tamales, we're in San Diego, you what tamales are. So there is not one tamal or even a taco, but a tamal because it's it's made at home. So that is the same. You know, whoever makes it, they have their own, we call it sazón. So they have their own flavor and magic that goes in it. And you can have five different tamales made in five different homes. Each one is going to have its own unique flavor, even though it's the same thing.

[15:23] Jet Bunditwong: This is such a true statement and I've always said this and now it starts to make sense. I was like it's never tasted s I I've always said this to people. I'm like, I have another one. It it doesn't taste like the one I've had before. wow.

[15:34] Pam Covarrubias: Yes. Yes. And it comes it like frankly it's with every cuisine. Every traditional cuisine. If you go to your grandma's house, you're gonna taste something that if you go to another grandma's house, it's not gonna taste the same. You know? Because everyone has their own says on. And so in a similar lens from that, the wounds, the five wounds, affect us in different ways. Because I think I don't believe there's a one size fits all for anything. There are frameworks and there are tools that support. And there isn't one thing that can just work for you and the same thing for everyone else. It's almost like holding a pencil. Nobody like we're taught in school to hold a build a pencil a certain way. I hold pens and pencils different. And I would get in trouble for it because my teachers would be like control. And so if we allow ourselves to understand that there's kind of like a container, but we don't have to fit in the container all in the same way, which is kinda like a dad like Play-Doh, then it's different. So for everyone is different. Do you want to hear the five wounds? So and to your point of men, men also receive the wounds because who raises men? So the wound of silence that keeps us quiet, the wound of commitment that keeps us under resourced.

[16:44] Jet Bunditwong: Yes, I would love it too.

[16:51] Jet Bunditwong: Women. Yeah.

[17:00] Pam Covarrubias: The wound of power that gives us burnt out, the wound of worth that keeps us underpaid, and the wound of identity that keeps us lost. And so each one of the wounds, everyone has them in different ways. And when I teach I teach a Gaeta culture workshop, I give them kind of like a a sheet to fill it out and I give them examples on the over and the under compensation. Because and at the end the it's a one pager basically that looks like toggles. And so everyone ends up with a different blueprint of their wounds, which is really cool because that allows you to see that not we're not the same. You might have the wound of worth and I may have the wound of power and they're like in different parts of the toggle. And then what I invite people to think about is how could we lean on each other? Because I do believe in in collective in I talk about Chromics, which is the story of the study of time. And I do believe that we can collectively borrow from each other's strengths. And so confidence is borrowed, for example. It's been studied many times. And so some people call me a confidence coach. And because I often we go through the wounds and we discover what is your unique blueprint around that and who could you borrow that confidence from. So to bring it back to the podcast and the models that I was looking for, I was looking to borrow their confidence.

[18:30] Jet Bunditwong: Right. And do you think women understand this that they've been through this? Do Okay, so so like there a I I would think that a lot of women go through life and just keep fighting through and accept it and go, This is just this is what it is, right? men will do this to me, men do this to me and it's just have to keep going through this and then one day you open up the gates and you're like, my god. Like Yes. You've been going through this. Yes.

[18:38] Pam Covarrubias: Once they hear it, yes.

[18:58] Jet Bunditwong: What is their what are some of the reactions that you've gotten when they start to realize like, this is not my fault?

[19:03] Pam Covarrubias: Correct. Well, the one of the most touching things people have said to me after they learned about the wounds is thank you for giving it a name to what I've been feeling. Because we often talk about emotions and I don't know if we have names for all the emotions. And when identifying what has, for example, kept someone underpaid and not negotiating for a higher salary or being quiet in meetings at their job or not charging enough in their business. It removes the feeling of I'm broken and I have something's wrong with me because I c just can't bring myself to do the thing. To it's not you, it's all the systems that have been put in place to prevent you from doing it. And so it it just creates the the cool thing is that I it gives people a foundation to be like, this is why I am it's not because I was born broken, it's because there are fragments that just needed to be repositioned and understood.

[20:12] Jet Bunditwong: And I I think that from a male's perspective, you know, I was raised by a single mother and grew up with a sister, and I've seen that from their experiences. And I often think that men, even the men that aren't aware or purposely doing that stuff, end up kind of pushing that narrative, right? Because you're just like it becomes a little bit I I I see it as survivus survival of the fittest, right? And you're just like Well, I don't want someone to to take my job or take my position, take my money, take my power. And then you start to realize, but there's ten of us and one woman in the office. I was looking at her, but all these other men are doing the same thing towards her. Right. Right. And we're and then guys will start to be like, but he's a nice guy. I can, I can I I'm I'm willing to help him out. Right. And I I've gone through this myself where I've seen this in a a work setting and guys are a lot more forgiving. They're a lot More willing to share. Like they were like, don't worry about it. I'm gonna help you out. But then a woman comes along and tries to take the power and go, she doesn't really know what you it's just this thing, right? Yeah, yeah. And she's like, she'll she'll have her time, right? And then you start to see, and then that becomes an industry, and then that becomes a whole entire corporation, a company, and then the workplace, and then that woman is now like, This sucks. I don't wanna work for this company. And really it was just these system in into

[21:36] Pam Covarrubias: System.

[21:38] Jet Bunditwong: Multiple little systems that keep breaking us down. so and I don't know if you go f this far into with men, what is it that men going back to your point that they're being raised by women most of the time from from mother, what is it now that positioning, do the men have to be aware sooner in life or do the women have to try to train the men earlier in life? Yeah, yeah.

[22:06] Pam Covarrubias: Chicken or the egg. Well, we have to kind of like step back and also look at this at the bigger system because I can't blame my grandmother, for example, for raising macho men. Because she did the best she could with Yeah. Like she was beat what before you know, like they were she was married when she was fourteen years old. Like we look at that story and I'm like, how? Yeah. Yeah. And so We ca also can't put all the responsibility on one side of the spectr and we're keeping it very binary. You know, we have all the other types of humans that exist and I think to make it in the simplest form, it all starts with self awareness. And self awareness, in a way, the first step is to remove individualism. Because we exist in capitalism, which is a system. Mm-hmm. That extracts resources and looks to grow based on the extraction of resources. Which means that we have been this is why corporate America has such a stereotypical view of extraction. Because the role of capitalism is to grow profits based on the extraction of resources. Some people could argue with me on it. Yeah. Whatever. And but the reality is, I mean The Amazon is burning because we're burning resources in the hopes of profits. And so I don't know if we can give the responsibility to it needs to s to like women need to like start it or men need to start it. It's it's collective. It's how do I point out to you, Jet, like, maybe you need to have more women on your show? You know, or or and like you being able to to take it and be like, you know what? Let me look back at my list. And be like, You're right, maybe I need to invite more women in my show.

[24:09] Jet Bunditwong: 'Cause you have to it's it's like I I look at this like the the causation and then reciprocation. It it just keeps going by it's and then we need the personalities to be able to absorb it and go, Okay, that it's true, right? Yes. And I I then I I look at these moments like now, not even just culture wise, but we're talking about regions of the country. my guess is there's gonna be certain regions of the country that are Men, women are more accepting of criticism, I I would guess, right? And then there might be areas where we're like, no. Like I my guess would be Yeah, yeah. Hard cities, you know, the major cities are probably like, no, no, this is the way it's been done. We're gonna stick to this. And we might have, you know, a a a town, a village of people somewhere and go, Yeah, we're always open to ideas, you know. And now to think that over time it's you know, I I always

[24:46] Pam Covarrubias: It's been done this way.

[25:05] Jet Bunditwong: question this right how long would it take for if we were to script out these are the most important things that we want to change in United States culture over time be able to have equal rights ideas for men, women, transgender, everyone, how long would that take for for us, right? I I sometimes I go, my guess is Possibly five generations if you were to start, to start at that moment and go, everyone's on board. We're on board, right? And I know we're fighting this, this like you know, you get to some place, you're like, I d I don't like these people, but I'm gonna I'm gonna try to change, right? And I think it would probably take, I mean, I don't know, what's five generations, maybe a hundred years or something, right? For twenty every twenty something years you get like something, it's a different feeling.

[25:59] Pam Covarrubias: And I think it's happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, if I I that made me think about I talked to my partner and I ask him, like we'd have these philosophical conversations and every time I ask him, What era would you live? If you were to go back, what era would you live? And like going back to the beginning of times, you know? And he every time he says this one. And I'm like, what? But like the fashion of the seventies and you know, and he always grounds me back to you would die. You know? If you were to go back to any other type of era, you wouldn't be here. Yeah. Unless you were a white man in the US, specifically speaking, you know? And so I think we are that that conversation always brings me back to

[26:32] Jet Bunditwong: Right.

[26:51] Pam Covarrubias: We look forward a lot to the future and do we avoid or skip looking at w how far we've come, you know? Yeah. Because it wasn't until nineteen seventy five that women could open a bank account. Wild. Yeah. My mom couldn't do like my mom was of age to be able to walk into a bank account and she couldn't do it unless she brought a brother, a husband, or a father with her.

[27:07] Jet Bunditwong: It's not that long ago. Correct.

[27:19] Pam Covarrubias: It wasn't until nineteen seventy five. You know, I wasn't born yet, but I was like my mom was. She was old enough. She was twenty something.

[27:28] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah, I I think about this all the time. So I love shows, movies about especially in America from like the late eighteen hundreds when there was America was being developed into now I love watching those railroads were being built, right? Towns, villages in Oklahoma or building across the country, people taking their families on wagons and I've started realizing over the past couple of years my fascination with it is because I could never exist to your point. Right. Right. Like I go, I go I could if I could go back in time, bring back knowledge and go, I can I can fast track this for you and change the way you live your life, but I would be killed. Yeah. They would go, I don't know what what's going on with you, but we're just gonna we're just gonna take you out.

[28:15] Pam Covarrubias: Totally.

[28:21] Pam Covarrubias: Which is probably what happened. Yeah. I mean, we we look at like right now we're recording this during Pride Month, you know, and I think about all the drag queens or the the trans women that marched that didn't live to see what we can do. Mexico City, for example, recently raced the biggest human pride flag in the world. I think it's in the world. Someone can fact check me on it. But it's like it it was a record. And I wish Marsha P. Johnson could have seen it. She would be so incredibly proud. And her fight and her livelihood was such that allowed us to be where where we are now. And so yes, it would take five, ten, fifteen generations to make change. And it would be really exciting to see. I don't know if we'll get to. Yeah. But at least we can say that I mean the world's falling apart. Don't get me wrong. Like it's it's intense. Like I'm afraid to go outside. Yeah. And there's also a lot of resistance. You know, like just being able to we have these things. I I talked to it makes me also think about a conversation that I have had with my mom when we've looked at she she's an avid news watcher, which we tell her like she needs to chill because like

[29:23] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah.

[29:42] Jet Bunditwong: Like she'll take the information and call you right away and be like

[29:44] Pam Covarrubias: Do you know? And I'm like, no, I didn't because I've been working. And so she often brings it back to all of these things, terrible things have happened, always happened in the world. Like there's always been people capitalism. And and the difference is that we have these things that allow us to see it immediately. Yeah. That's the difference. And so and it's frightening. And at the same time, it's also grounding. And I this morning I was watching a video of a woman that was abducted by because she's an immigrant. And the video was sad and terrible. But then there was an artist who built who made a poem about her. And then there was an artist who drew a photo did a painting or a drawing about it. And so I think we can ground ourselves into the realities and the brutalities and and all the suffering and at the same time art is something that can help us see in the future. Like when 10 generations are able to look back at his at history and be like, people were doing this terrible stuff. Like they were straight up kidnapping humans without any type of warrant. And then we can also see and people were resilient and they resisted with whatever form it was. And so It's a lot.

[31:16] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah, there was this Instagram posts and I I don't remember who posted it, but it was they put into Chat GPT what if along the lines of like if they if Chat GPT thought we were doing good for ourselves and every output was no. Like like it was like you you're you're basically always trying to destroy each other. And end yourselves, you're you work you you work most of the time just to take a break so you can work again. Yes. Right. You're you your vacation is to recover from work. So you're most of your life, you're gonna get to a point where when you stop working, there's not much life left. Right. So all of our and and it was there was this theme of like destruction and anger that we're always trying to push upon each other, which If you were to look at the history of not just the United States but of the world, that's basically it, right? And I've always said that humans were the greatest things and the worst things to happen to us, right? Because we we when you get those extremes of when people love and create things and art, beauty, other people and and be there to support other people, it's just a great moment. And you go, how many people had to think alike just to even get a hundred people To be on the same page and go, we're gonna go support this cause person. And then the opposite side, you have the same thing. And I part of me always admires that in a way. Go, wow, there's a large group of people that think the same way to cause destruction and mayhem. And you're like, imagine if you use that power to something greater, right? Like if you sat together and be like, okay, we we don't have to use hate, but maybe we can support this to better human society, but people don't do that, right? Because now we can have our selfishness and then we have that the upbringing that falls into it, right? And there's all these moments of I always look at if someone were to hurt someone, murder someone, do something to a group of people, you're like, there's probably a moment that could have been changed by a parent, a friend, or even a a moment with like an animal, right? Just

[33:38] Jet Bunditwong: A a dog comes up to them and they go, man, I don't want to hurt people anymore. But that never happened. And this changes the the course of someone's life and then it affects everyone else. And then you're just like, Why are people like this? Like, why are we like this? Like we we never we like we should have never ever got to a point where we're harming each other and disagreeing, right? We're like, if we all just agreed and be Yeah, go ahead, go do your thing. If it doesn't bother me, we're cool. I'm gonna go hang out on the beach. You go into your home, do your thing, and then we're gonna live our separate lives, but we can't do that, right? And I think what you're a lot of what you try to help people with seems to come from this you're fighting something that you probably have no control of, but you can at least try to repair yourself in a sense, you know, as much as possible. do you get people that come back and they're just like, I I want to speak to a lot of the influences in my life and I was able to to let them know like

[34:38] Pam Covarrubias: Yeah. Really? I I coach entire families. Super fun. And I I was talking to one of my clients who is she's she's a mother of the various people that I coach. And she's like, you know, we I was thinking about this the other day and we tell you so much. Like, you know so much. And I'm like, Well yeah, but I'm not gonna use it against you, you know. And so Right. Do you want the cheese thing? Here's all the cheese.

[35:09] Jet Bunditwong: If you know the Lopez family, this is what's happening.

[35:13] Pam Covarrubias: This is what's going on. And I think to to what you said earlier, humans got a taste of control and greed without love. I think when something happened that I also lean a lot into the teachings of Mother Earth, you know, and we have the night and the sh and the and the day, we have the sun and the moon and And just as much as we have nighttime, we also have daytime. And so it's necessary to have that level of contrast to understand that some things are good and some things are bad. Bad. And I think a challenge that I see is how some humans stayed in the darkness without coming back to love and without really allowing themselves to see the humanity of others because they forgot in some way. And the other cool thing that happens once people begin having that self awareness, 'cause I think at the end of the day it's it's being self aware, which I think the people that cause harm, they have a level of self awar self awareness to an extent they just choose not to do the right thing. Because morals and because again, greed and lack of love. And so what's cool is that once people choose to access that self awareness, then it's up to you to make a different choice. And I think of of another client who she had a reputation for being kinda like the the the starter of like the gossip in the office. And literally people would be like, here comes the gossiper, you know? And when we went into exploring her at her soul level, basically, at her in at the subconscious level, why did she need to bring gossip? Then I do inner child work. So Gaeta culture is a lot, it's deeply rooted in inner child. And so what happened is that her younger version, the little girl that she still carries with her,

[37:35] Pam Covarrubias: She needed to be accepted because she wasn't. And so what happened anytime she would bring gossip, I mean, she'd be like, guess what? Let's sit down. So she would feel this level of acceptance from others. And then she would take it to another group and another group. And so it was this like she was finally accepted. And so when her conscious came into that awareness, then she could make a different choice. You know? And so I often I don't do the work. People do the work. I just hold the space for people to witness themselves. And an invitation is to simply sit back and say, Why do I choose this? What am I looking to receive in exchange of it? And it s sounds simple, but you know.

[38:23] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah, 'cause you're almost in that case, you're essentially willing to cause harm to others for your for your gain. For like a a a two minutes of of happiness, right? And I think I think that happens a lot for humans. I mean, I'm like guilty of it, but it goes towards food, right? If I'm like having a stressful day or something, I go, I have this rule. I have this rule in my life, in everyone around me I I have this rule that I do not ever take my day out on someone and I don't like it when someone does it to me because we're not that's not that's not our purpose, right? To be like, I've had a a crappy day. I'm gonna come out and I'm just gonna be Yeah, mean to you. You didn't you didn't deserve it, you didn't do it. So I rather take it out on a cheeseburger and I'm gonna I'm gonna eat this, I'm gonna eat this with fries, I'm gonna have a milkshake and do it. And then over the years I have figured out, I'm like, well, that was literally five minutes of happiness. Right. And now I I hate the way it feels. Yeah. So having to break that cycle and it's that self-awareness. Right. And but I look at this as how long did that take me to go through that? Right. I'm in my forties and go f it was like a couple of years ago. I can keep doing this. I can't go I there was there was a I remember a stressful week years ago where I

[39:32] Pam Covarrubias: It's a choice.

[39:48] Jet Bunditwong: had a a cheeseburger on a Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday. I didn't have pizza on the Thursday. I'm like, what is happening? Like, but it I was like, yeah, yeah. It was, it was a really, it was a really stressful week. And I I started learning. I was like, I have to start to break the cycle. And you know, I was talking about this on a with a guest that one of the things that made me aware of that as a byproduct was I was trying to see how how fit how

[39:55] Pam Covarrubias: Very stressed.

[40:16] Jet Bunditwong: Healthy I can get, and I was putting into an app foods throughout the day. And then I noticed this correlation that, man, every time I get stressed, I'd would eat certain types of foods. Cheeseburger, my go-to cheeseburger. And then the cheeseburgers became like, it wasn't just like a cheeseburger. It was a bacon cheeseburger, a double cheeseburger. So and I was like, then I would go, now I gotta work this off for the rest of the week. Right. And I was like, It does this make sense for me to keep doing this over and over again and it's a mental state. And I think when people get into these spaces, because it's not just about food, right? It's like taking out someone else. It could be smoking, drinking, it could be literally being physical with someone, just pushing someone around. And I think we don't that self-awareness takes time and it it takes effort, right? for me, being able to to talk to someone professionally over time. was something that I was like, okay, there there's a lot of stuff that happened when I was younger I need to start to deal with and it doesn't happen overnight like you're saying, but it you have to start to poke at it and go, okay, this is why I'm doing this. This is why, you know, I had I've told this to people before, but the the version of me now is not the same version I was, especially in my late teens of twenties. I was I was I was a really like, if you didn't agree with me, I was gonna give you hellfire. And I would

[41:39] Pam Covarrubias: I could not see that.

[41:41] Jet Bunditwong: And I to this day, if I were to look back on it too, and I've had I don't know if it's any ex-girlfriends are watching this, but I've had ex-girlfriends who multiple ones, and this is where I started noticing it, was they were like, if you keep talking to people like this, especially women, you are gonna lose women in your life. And there was a moment in my late twenties and I was like, How am I and I was like, I'm talking to women fine. And then it was like I started like, I'm gonna pay attention to this. And it was like if I didn't get my way, I'd be like, No, no, no, you go. And it was like and I started pushing people away and eventually I had breakups and people were just women were just like, No, I this is not gonna work for me. Yeah. Yeah. And and and then I got in my thirties and I think there was this period of I was I'm gonna concentrate myself because I was I had moved to the from the East Coast to LA and and it was, you know, you don't you I think when you move to a new place you're just concentrating on it for a few years. And it I was that time when I was like, Man, no, I haven't had a long enough relationship that felt like I was putting in enough into it. Right. It was always the other person that was carrying ninety percent of it. And I and I was like, they're make it work for us. Right. And I started learning. And then I think forties I was like, Okay, cool. Like this you you were kind of a jerk for most of your life and how do you change it? And I think there's I think there's moments even now where I can feel wanting to go there. You know, like I go put and go, that's not who you want to be, right? Like I I feel like it's it's literally ninety-nine percent out. Like they're just like out. But once in a while you go, I wanna, I wanna I want that rush to be able to l to tell people off and go, but you don't know what's going on with their day. Correct. And you don't know you don't know where this is coming from because what my anger is, it's really not about this moment of a car that swiped you. It's really about Five things that have happened to build up to that moment. Right. So I think that self awareness is such a crucial part of the way we interact with each other. And then to go back in time and go, Why am I like this? Why do I get angry? Why do I get sad when things happen? Why do I get stressed out with this? Right. do you have you gone back and look and gone into your own past? my gosh. And built through like, okay.

[44:01] Pam Covarrubias: Since I'm eleven years old. Wow. Yeah.

[44:05] Jet Bunditwong: Wow, and what were some of the things that I mean, you don't have to tell personal things, right? But what were some of the tools that you have used over time to

[44:14] Pam Covarrubias: So I think self-awareness is really important. I have a personal story that I'm happy to share because I've worked on this for so long that now it's like a total story. But when I I've been with my partner for ten years and one time he was working nights and I was working days and he lived in Arizona. And so I knew he was working nights. And I w at this point I was working at a coffee shop. And so My shift, I mean, if you if you've ever worked in hospitality, you know it's like there's no time to check your phone. And so I went to work at like seven, finished, it was like part-time. So I finished like at one, let's say. And when I usually we would be like, I would have text messages from him. And I check my phone and nothing. And I was like, and we were like, it's the beginning of a relationship, right? So I freak out and I'm like He's w we're done. He's left me.

[45:15] Jet Bunditwong: Well he's like sleeping.

[45:17] Pam Covarrubias: He yeah. We like he's ghosting me. my and I had t message him in the beginning, like I'm headed to work, like I hope you have a good like whatever. And I called him, no answer. I walk my dog, I come back, and of course my catastrophizing is just like creating all these scenarios of like he's done with me. What did I do? I went back into the hit like it was just a lot. And I called him again and then he answers and it's like all groggy, like, yeah, what's up? And I'm like, are you alive? Are you like, are you done with me? What's going on? And he was like, Pam, I was sleeping. Yeah. I was literally sleeping. Like, I'm about to go to work in two hours. And that moment created me, built a lot of self-awareness in me. Because I realized that

[45:52] Jet Bunditwong: I came home at four AM. Right.

[46:10] Pam Covarrubias: Who was actually anxious about not hearing from him wasn't present version of me. It was eleven year old version of me whose dad left. And so especially b when he's far away, because what happened is when I was eleven, we went on vacation and then when we came back, my dad was gone. And so that moment I relived it because trauma, it can take less than a second for things to set off. And so I relived that moment when I didn't hear from him. And so I was like, okay, let me calm myself down, go back to bed. And after I did some work on myself, lots of introspection, I do tapping, which is a somatic tool in the body. And I was able to process that. I had a conversation with him and I was like, this is now that I have self-awareness of this, let's make a deal. I feel like you leave me every time I don't hear from you for three hours. That's just how my body reacts to this. Does that make me crazy? Probably. And if you care, could we compromise? Like just tell me I'm going to bed. And he was like, you know what? I could no problem. I could do that. I could tell you, hey, I'm I just got home. I'm headed to bed. It's not a big deal. That will give you peace. It costs me nothing. Yeah. Somebody else, frankly, could have been like, You're out of your mind. I don't have you don't have to keep tabs on me. Like, you know, it's my business, what I do with my like whatever. But he was willing and open to hear me and meet me at my level of self awareness to say, All right, I have no problem doing that. And so moving forward, every time he would get home at like seven, eight in the morning, 'cause it was like a weird shift, he'd be like, Hey, I'm home, I'm going to bed. I'll talk to you in five, six hours. And I would be like, No problem. And we never dealt with that again because going back to self awareness is so important. And so short answer to long answer to your short question but short answer is I've I continue to work on things all the time.

[48:13] Jet Bunditwong: And you know, you made this point where and I don't know if this is a a cohesive thing that's written out, right? But one of the things that I've learned from getting help from a professional and just being self-aware and working myself is one, we're we're especially when two people come together in a relationship and they end up getting closer, spending more time, and then eventually living together, marriage, whatever it is. You have two households that raise two separate people and sometimes different cultures. Right. And trying to bring and then we're we're telling people, well now you're gonna be in a box and you can't leave for unless you go through these legal situations if you're married. And then you have to make it work. And but there's no Like a lot of times I don't think there's this conversation to go, well, how are we going to communicate? Yes. Right. And and I think that's the other the second part of what I've learned is being a better communicator is will go light years into any relationship, whether it be friendship, romantic, whatever it is, because now you're you know, you know, and we're going back to now back to cultures a little bit. A lot of cultures don't Especially men are just like, no, you know, we're gonna keep this bottle up inside until we're fifty five and then it's gonna explode and we don't know why. Yes. And trying to have that communication, I think in the beginning it's rough. And I learn that communication has not only helped me in my relationships, but been able to be able to work with businesses too. Right. And I think people have appreciated that about me. And then the other thing that is I feel like it's important is the reception of it, the the willing. Cause then you can do those two things that self awareness, adjust what we're doing, communicate. And then it doesn't go anywhere if both parties are not willing to, okay, I hear you. Let's let me sit on it and and go away. And then I'll come back and let's talk about this. Right. And then and part of that, like my structure is I don't like to get into or say things back right away.

[50:32] Jet Bunditwong: Mm because I know that self awareness where it goes back to that old me where I was like, if I fire back right now, yeah, yeah, react. And I I so I try to shut down, I try to not say anything for a little while and then let's talk about this tomorrow. That way you take some of the emotion out of it and it's really about the I I like to say about the facts more, but but you're going through like, okay, what was really the cause of this? What's going on here? And do things like that. And I think that's that's tough, you know. I I remember When was going looking at like counseling and therapy, there were had some friends who were just like, this is you don't need to do it. Yeah, you're gonna get they're just gonna tell you some stupid things. And I realized I was like, man, that's but that's the predetermined notion of especially I think for a lot of men to go in there and go, I'm gonna share my feelings, which is hard enough. And then I'm also gonna have to be vulnerable, which is another step that I think the average guy has to go in there and and share themselves, right? And give you kind of a little bit of a story. There was a nonprofit organization that a friend of mine, she was she's was a guest on this show and she we were trying to help foster youth that were transitioning out of the program once they turn eighteen if they get into it. And the the program sort of developed into this Well, we were gonna mentor these young men. So they've we've the organization found a bunch of men that were roughly I I would say like mid thirties and above that had their life kinda situated and could give time and mentor these young men. And I don't know if you're familiar with that type of situation, but a lot of these foster youths just come out and then they don't have money, they don't have anything. They don't that most of them don't even have driver's license, right? And they're like, You're also in San Diego now go make a life for yourself and it doesn't quite make sense. In that this organic thing happened where we made this deal that on Sundays we would get together and we would talk to try to make sure that we were okay before we went to help. So we started getting together. And it was amazing how fast that once people started were vulnerable, willing to share their stories, people were just crying, people were and I remember a time I was going through a lot of stuff and

[52:58] Jet Bunditwong: We were just like, my God. And y you hear all these stories of different men going through stuff and you're like, you have been acting like nothing's happening. Yeah, yeah, you never guess, right? And it it allowed us and I think that was oddly part of the sort of a side therapy that was happening while 'cause that I was also trying to be more self aware and getting help for myself at the same time. So it was sort of like, this is all happening. I get more outlets to try to do this, right?

[53:07] Pam Covarrubias: Never get

[53:28] Jet Bunditwong: And what was interesting is the w one of the gentlemen that reached out to me and he was like, I could we just talk about this? Like it was like it was just kind of cool to go over things with with someone else and you're like, we actually have a lot in common, but you're also he was literally dealing with something that I was dealing with and I was like, That's crazy that we're literally going through the same thing and he was like he was like, Yeah, we don't talk about we we've like try to just like pretend like it didn't happen. And I was like, well, it's kinda nice. And he was like, it's a really good good outlet to be able to discuss that with someone, you know? and with with you and your your clients, do you do you feel like the beginning is tough for them to share? Or do do a lot of time for or is it with women, is it is it a not as

[54:19] Pam Covarrubias: Clients actually.

[54:26] Pam Covarrubias: Know if it's hard for them to share. I think what's hard is for them to trust what they will share. Because I think below like vulnerability is what happens when you share. But behind that is feeling safe enough to share it. And so I think I've learned to create a container where I'm a great listener. I will say that. And my role is to hold the space for them to see themselves, is to hold a mirror to be like, okay, who do you see? And so the hardest part is for people to arrive at a place where they feel like they can tr their foundation is sturdy enough for them to jump off and jump in the pool. But if it's wobbly still, they're not gonna share. And so and also For me as as a practition practitioner is also trusting that they'll get to that trust. And this is why I call myself a long term coach. I don't believe that I can work with you for three sessions because you might get something or it might just be the beginning of you getting to know yourself. And what I like always when people say, How long does it take? You know, how long is this gonna take? Well, listen. If you are forty years old all those forty years

[55:57] Jet Bunditwong: So you like three months? Three months should be okay?

[56:00] Pam Covarrubias: Tomorrow and like we we and all of this comes, the expectation comes from living in the such fast-paced world in the world of AI where we can just type a prompt and get something immediately. We are not robots. We are human beings full of flesh and organs and emotions. And something that I thought about earlier is also I think context. And so what allows People to open up with me sometimes is that I provide context. And context is really powerful, just like the conversation that I shared with my partner, where it was like, this happened to me when I was eleven. And so anytime you do something similar, my brain thinks we're back at that moment. And that provided enough context for him to understand that it's not that I'm crazy or that I'm just being overly dramatic or whatever the thought may be. It's that simply I have a lived experience that makes me believe that something is true when I relive it. And so I think the hardest part for people is to trust that they can share. Yeah.

[57:07] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah, and do you think that Having building some sort of rapport and relationship with you in the beginning is important. Like do you do you start to feel that with a client in the beginning? You're like, ooh, we need I think we just need to talk for

[57:23] Pam Covarrubias: Okay. For sure. Yeah. For sure. And I'm thinking about I have a client who she's one of the most challenging people. But I have every session we have, I have a little bit more context. Her favorite w answer is, I don't know. I don't know. What are you feeling this way? I don't know. What do you think this happened? I don't know. And so slowly through our conversations, she's that she doesn't trust I've discovered. that the trust, the lack of trust is not it's in me. She doesn't trust me quite yet. Because at some point of her life, she wasn't trusted. Yeah. And she was questioned all the time. And so the easiest way to get out of situations was to say, and so yeah, it it may take it depends on the person, frankly. Like I've had sessions where like the moment they get on the phone, they like the screen like, Hi, hello. And then it's like Like two years.

[58:22] Jet Bunditwong: I've been waiting for this moment. Yeah, it's it's interesting because I have you know, I I think the my a lot of my issues and I think the way I've treated women when I was younger and and people came from dad, right? Like I had I didn't we had a a broken household and my my father was not a a good person and I I look at those moments like Dan I'm doing some of the things

[58:49] Pam Covarrubias: Yeah.

[58:50] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah, yeah. There was an show, a lot of anger. He was rude and I I pick at those moments and I go, What like am I you know, I've had this conversation with my my sister too, like if you could change it, right? And I I feel like we've had this conversation, we've gotten to a point where we we think we're pretty decent people. Mm-hmm and I we've had this conversation. If we could change it, would we have done that? To have perfect father to get would we still be the people we are? And I've gone back and forth in this and go genetically, I was able to figure out along the way that I have to be s more self-aware and start to fix a lot of these things. Yes. Right. And then I go, Well, those things made me, I think, resilient and be able to push through things because I think when you're you're going through that stuff as a kid, I and I tend to see this overall, people who have had say trauma, but more difficulty with their childhood. Yeah. And but yeah, yeah. And you start to see these people seem to be like, yeah, yeah, I I went through this. I I had cancer when I was kid. I got hit by a car, you know, walking there and they're like, you know, like this is and then I go to supermarket and apples are out. I'm not getting angry because of that, right? I'm able to withstand that because there was something else that happened when I was

[59:53] Pam Covarrubias: I mean it's trauma. There's big T trauma and there's little T.

[01:00:16] Pam Covarrubias: It it was safe. Yeah. I think I l I I talk about David a lot and how he is like examp is he's always an example because he's a very much reflection of the opposite of me. And he grew up in the Midwest, he's a white man and so we're we couldn't be more opposite. Culturally, you talked about culture and living in the box and we've had a lot of conversations about how we lived and gr grew up. And he grew up With a mom and dad. And I didn't. Yeah. And so we've talked about recently we had a conversation about anxiety and how my dad was recently traveling and I sent him a message and my message didn't go through. And then I sent him a WhatsApp message and it didn't deliver. And then I called him and he didn't answer. And I was like, done. Like catastrophe again. You know, like He's dead, like he's in the middle of the ocean, like you know and David's like how like wait a minute. Like Right. Like he maybe his phone is off, or it turns out he was on a plane. Yeah. Like he was in the middle of the flight, right? And we talked about or different types of anxiety and I'm a catastrophizer because catastrophes happen in my life. He's an overthinker.

[01:01:21] Jet Bunditwong: He just might not have entered it.

[01:01:40] Pam Covarrubias: Because he didn't have to c he doesn't have to catastrophize. He just he just goes to what could be the worst possible case scenario and he can overthink that. But he's still safe within himself because there weren't any catastrophes in his lifetime, in his childhood. I had all kinds of catastrophes. And so I go to the cat like, let me just prepare myself for the worst.

[01:01:59] Jet Bunditwong: Like that happened in one step. I can I'll get back there really soon.

[01:02:02] Pam Covarrubias: Totally. And so going back to the self awareness is also challenging the thoughts to say it's not true. Yeah. It's not true. And when I brought myself to I mean, all of this is in it's like in two seconds, right? Like I called him attacks, and then I'm like, wait a minute. What do we know to be true? What we know to be true is that he's just not answering. That's as far as we can go. That's like the limit. You know, and that's it. It's very simple. And so yeah, I think there's the the safety piece, it's also context as to why we may react the way that we do. Because if anger is what's coming to the surface when situations happen, is it because you feel the need to protect yourself because it wasn't safe? If it's anxiety in my case, it's because it wasn't safe. Yeah. You know, it's it always goes back to safety, I think.

[01:03:00] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah, I had I I think one of the things that helped me from getting there and this was it was such a simple thing, but and I don't remember where I heard it. I I remember I took it from someone and it was like, Is it that bad? And then so I would have to say it and put the context and structure into it and go, Okay, that that person cut me off. Was it that bad? Right. Did we almost get an accident? And and like you said, this happens in within like two, three seconds, go, it wasn't that bad. I'm gonna go back to whatever I'm I'm doing, right? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that's the hardest part is to you know, I always look at it as like a it's like a mound of

[01:03:32] Pam Covarrubias: And you choose.

[01:03:42] Jet Bunditwong: these moments, right? And you keep throwing things in the right pile. You're like, then this over the scale tips into one direction and I'm happier. Yes. But then you keep throwing it into that negative pile and you're like, okay, now I'm just I just need I swear now if that woman cuts me off at the supermarket, I'm gonna go off at her. You don't know why, right? And I think you know I've joked about this on the show before that coming from growing up in New York City in the eighties and early nineties That is a different world. That's like one of those where you it's a you know respect. Yeah. And you gotta you gotta be like I I'm I'm I don't no one's getting in my way. We gotta make it. And even as a young kid I understood that. Right. I understood I was like, you ca like I I don't know there's always these moments that go in my head when you I would walk into a bar and you know, don't do this if you're under eighteen, but when we were younger in when I was growing up in New York City, they did not care. You were we were going to bars when we were 17, 18 because they were just like whatever. Yeah, they were whatever. You guys got money come in there. And if you would bump into someone by accident, all hell was breaking loose. Like you go with a bunch of guy friends, we just like run into someone and there's 300 people in the space. How do you get through? And you're just like, why are you pushing me? And you're just like, no, and then there would be like shoving matches, people start throwing punches. And then you you come to a place like San Diego where people are like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Yeah, yeah. I'm so I'm sorry. That was my fault. Like, no, no, that was my fault. Everyone's taking credit for it. But having that and transitioning over, I remember feeling like I should be more aggressive on the West Coast. Wow. Like when there was I I was pointed this out, like another just funny story when I This was the first very first day I I moved to Los Angeles. We were still looking for a place and I was walking to a Starbucks. I like nothing else was open. It's seven o'clock in the morning. I'm walking in and in in New York, when you're walking, you're used to

[01:05:47] Pam Covarrubias: New York is a whole monster. It's a whole other planet.

[01:05:50] Jet Bunditwong: You have like speed walking through. And I remember walking through this Starbucks. It was like four blocks away and was like, I need to get there. I had nothing to do. I was just I was just used to it. This random woman came up to me and she was like, Excuse me, sir, I've been following you because we were at a stoplight. She's like, I've been following you for like three blocks. She's like, Is there a bomb that's about to go up? And I was What do you mean? She's like, I've never seen him walk like that. She's like, You were like weaving in and out and try to get through P. I thought, I thought something was going on.

[01:06:08] Pam Covarrubias: Are you okay?

[01:06:17] Jet Bunditwong: And so I started following you thinking something. And I was like, wow, like you don't really see how different it is. And then I started noticing with the way I make this joke that like, especially in Southern California and San Diego, if someone's at a a light and they don't turn, people will just wait. Yeah. People will just be like, I'm willing to sit through another light in New York City. They're your hand is resting on the horde. You do not turn the second that turns green. Yeah. It just lets you know. So there's this mind shift. And I think over time meeting people and go spending time in the Midwest and the South and in the West Coast, you're just like, wow, this is a different feel from what I grew up with. And I it took years to try to get rid of that, right? And I'm not saying like that aggressiveness doesn't work in that context, right? Like you're saying. So you're at New York and you're like Yeah, you have you have to you it's doggy dog, right? Yeah. You have to keep you have to like am I gonna get pushed aside if in this workplace if I don't do this? If I if I just kind of relax a little bit too much, what happens to me?

[01:07:14] Pam Covarrubias: You just have to go.

[01:07:27] Pam Covarrubias: You get yelled at. Yeah. It happened to me. Not to me personally, because I grew up in Mexico City. And so when I go to New York City, it's I it kicks in real quick. Like the walking fast and the moving fast. And I we have a subway in Mexico City, so I know how to navigate the subway system really like easy and it's like fish in the water for me. But I went with a college group from the Midwest and the amount of times they got yelled at because they were just not moving, it was it was so funny. And I'm like Y'all, y we just need to go. Yeah. And they're like, but we're looking at the buildings and I'm like, Yeah, we don't have time to look at the buildings. You take a picture and then you look at it later, like get a postcard.

[01:08:05] Jet Bunditwong: New York people are so upfront. I think that's well that's one of the greatest loves of the culture and people in New York City is that when people speak in your mind, like get out of my way. Yeah. No, I'm just I'm just going. Yeah, yeah. Let's just all move together.

[01:08:23] Pam Covarrubias: That's where the context is important. Because it was in that trip, for example, it was really difficult for those kids at the time to like understand. And I'm like, you have to realize you're not in this little tiny town in the Midwest. You're in a big city where things move fast, people move fast, the world moved fast. And so you have to adapt and context it matters. And when we go to LA, it's it's a much more like

[01:08:49] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah, and it's and I think to your point, like I've done this I think to help myself out when I go to different pla especially different countries, I read up on it, right? 'Cause you wanna you you kinda like, what happens? Is it a little slower moving pace, faster? Does doing this cause an issue? So I think education of different cultures and places start to help you out.

[01:09:14] Pam Covarrubias: Yeah. Being open to to to adapting to that environment. Because we are a product of our environment. And I also think about when I go when I travel and I see like Americans have a reputation of like not adapting. So seeing people try to change the environment for their convenience. It's v it no, ma'am, we're not.

[01:09:40] Jet Bunditwong: And don't think people understand that enough that when you go to some place, you're this small little speck in this

[01:09:47] Pam Covarrubias: You're a guest. Yeah. Yeah. You know, you're not gonna walk into your neighbor's house and be like, no, in this house we fold the towels this way. Yeah. No, you're a guest. Yeah. You adapt.

[01:09:57] Jet Bunditwong: Yeah. God, I Pam, I could talk with you all the time. okay, let's start to wrap it up. And if you were to give one the biggest piece of advice is someone who is feeling like they are something there's something going on with them in their environment that's not cohesive and they're not happy, what would you what would you tell them?

[01:10:26] Pam Covarrubias: I mean, the easiest answer would be change. Change is hard and many times people were afraid of it. And self awareness, number one. So if you have the awareness to say I'm not happy anymore, then have the courage to ask why. And also have the courage to take self responsibility to say, What did I do to get here? Because while the systems have been in place for a long time to not be on our side. Of many people, we also have agency. Let's not forget that. And so self-awareness, self-responsibility, choice. What can you what can I choose today to do different? It could be a tiny choice, like maybe you're not gonna eat a cheeseburger and fries. Maybe it's just gonna be the cheeseburger, or maybe just the fries, and that's one step. And give yourself permission for progress. Because also in a world that's so fast-paced and so immediate gratification. We often don't give ourselves the space to be able to climb the mountain and pause for a second and look back and be like, dang, I've climbed like a thousand steps already. And so yeah. So self awareness, self responsibility, choice.

[01:11:44] Jet Bunditwong: Nice. And where can people find you? You're trying to reach out

[01:11:48] Pam Covarrubias: Well, since we you're big on LinkedIn. Yeah. LinkedIn, Pam Covarrubias, and I'm sure you have the links in the show notes. Café con Pam dot com. That's where you can find all the things. Café con Pam on YouTube, Kaffacum Pam Podcast on the socials. Kaffacum Pam is the easiest.

[01:12:05] Jet Bunditwong: All right. Well thank you so much, Pam, for being guests on the personal side of business.

[01:12:09] Pam Covarrubias: Thank you, Jet.